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Polkaholic
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1#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/09/2007 23:25:57)
Any melody that can be played on a D/G can be played on a B/C. The reverse is not true. So if you stick with B/C there are no tunes you won't be able to learn and join in with.
Each system has its advantages and others will be able to comment more knowledgeably than I can.
D/G pluses:
* ease of using the basses comprehensively
* ability to play "along the rows" in common keys (one or two sharps) gives a much punchier sound than on the B/C
* ability to play "across the rows" allows more fluid sound when you want it
* many more possibilities for right-hand chords and counter-melodies (in common keys)
* you can play a large part of the Irish repertoire just fine (one and two sharps covers a lot of tunes) but you'll be up a gum tree for the rest of it.
B/C pluses
* you are never stuck for a note - any note in the chromatic scale. You can't play easily in every possible key, but tunes in your main keys with lots of accidentals are no problem at all.
* you can play keys having one flat through to 3 sharps relatively easily. D minor is a breeze... More flats and sharps can be tackled with a bit more effort (leaving aside the exotic keys you can get by playing on the B row)
* in keys having one or two sharps you sound will generally be fairly fluid
I think the question you should ask yourself is what kind of music you really want to play. If it's Irish, do you really like the sound that B/C players get? If so, go for it. If not, you could get by fine with D/G as long as you can live with the key restrictions. (I decided I couldn't.)
There are people on here who play both systems, so expect more sense out of them.
Another possibility is C#/D, which is good for Irish music and ought to cohabit more easily with the punchier style of English playing.
C#/D pluses
* never stuck for a note, as with a B/C
* generally easier to use the basses than on B/C
* generally punchier sound than B/C (in common keys) since you are playing along the D rows mainly
* can play keys with one to four sharps easily, no accidentals or one flat with a bit more effort (leaving aside the exotic keys you can get by playing on the C# row)
Cheers
Steve
PS B/C is a harder system to get up to speed on, I think.
PPS Wonders can be worked with any system. The important thing is to choose a system and work at it - really work at it.
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georgegarside
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2#
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Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:04/09/2007 12:26:56)
Reply to : Polkaholic
Any melody that can be played on a D/G can be played on a B/C. The reverse is not true. So if you stick with B/C there are no tunes you won't be able to learn and join in with.Each system has its advantages and others will be able to comment more knowledgeably than I can.D/G pluses:* ease of using the basses comprehensively* ability to play "along the rows" in common keys (one or two sharps) gives a much punchier sound than on the B/C* ability to play "across the rows" allows more fluid sound when you want it* many more possibilities for right-hand chords and counter-melodies (in common keys)* you can play a large part of the Irish repertoire just fine (one and two sharps covers a lot of tunes) but you'll be up a gum tree for the rest of it.B/C pluses* you are never stuck for a note - any note in the chromatic scale. You ca
I agree with most of what steve has said with the exeption that the BC an be played with as much ?unch?s a DG - its very much down to playing technique. Eqully the Dg can be plyed very smoothly on the row if anad when required. Playing a BC amongsst Dg players is no different from playing a fiddle or a floot omongst them. The lack of usable bss need not be a problem as ,aagain, fiddles ?amp; flutes manage perfectly well without sepatate bass!. Overlalland for what its woth I would , on balance and hedging my bets etc etc recommend that you stick with the system you are used to and which is, as steve has said more versatile as far as range of keys. It is possible to play both systems without getting knickers in a twist and at the risk of boring people the BCCsharp provides decent bass with genuinely chromatic treble.
george
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Theo Gibb
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3#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:04/09/2007 16:07:30)
Reply to : georgegarside
and at the risk of boring people the BCCsharp provides decent bass with genuinely chromatic treble
Well I never thought you would recommend that system George! Have you mentioned it before somewhere?
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Jeff H
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4#
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Registered:15/12/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 03:39:02)
For an example of Irish music on a D/G listen to Tim Eady
Self Titled CD or go to you tube and look him up
One well known Brit D/G player told me that if he had to start all over again it would be a C#/D
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georgegarside
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5#
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Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 12:05:47)
Reply to : Jeff H
For an example of Irish music on a D/G listen to Tim EadySelf Titled CD or go to you tube and look him upOne well known Brit D/G player told me that if he had to start all over again it would be a C#/D
can? really see a lot of advantage in CsharpD over BC exept perhaps that it is slightly easier to play in A. What is the advantage of playing in D ? the row?ther than perhaps better aavailability ( or should it be availabiity, of bass.
george
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Polkaholic
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6#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 14:31:20)
Reply to : georgegarside
Can? really see a lot of advantage in CsharpD over BC exept perhaps that it is slightly easier to play in A. What is the advantage of playing in D ? the row?ther than perhaps better aavailability ( or should it be availabiity, of bass.
I think of the two systems as having differences which will suit different tastes - better for player one or player two, rather than better in some absolute way. Does Jackie Daly sound like Joe Burke?
Anyway, this is not the first time you've expressed this opinion, George, so I think it's time you tried to see for yourself. Never mind the basses. Take some tunes you know well on the BC and practise them transposed down a tone. Tunes in D, Em, G, Bm... You may not find an advantage, but I'd be surprised if you didn't find a big difference.
But C#D doesn't need to justify its right to exist any longer. I'm convinced that the pendulum of history is swinging away from BC, in Irish music at least. More quickly outside Ireland, but even there. A number of established Irish BC players have converted or are converting over to C#D - I have heard no reports of the reverse happening. There has to be a good reason for them to do this.
Cheers
Steve
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skipyskiphire
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7#
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Rank:none
Posts:9
From: Great_britain
Registered:03/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 17:54:13)
Reply to : Polkaholic
B/C or D/G?
Hi again,
My sincere thanks to Steve and George for your comprehensive and helpful advice. I 'think' I now have the courage to turn up with my B/C box and sit amongst 'them' D/G box's...... Well... at least I'll give it a try!
However, I still dont understand what all the fuss is about, Why did the D/G player frown and Hhhmmm when I told him mine was a B/C box, I'm sure he wasn't belittling the B/C system or my box but he gave me the impression it would be awkward, if so why?
As I stated I'm only a novice, no music training, I learn by reading the music and playing by ear, up to now solo. I starting with The Kerry Polka, Rakes of Mallow, Peg Ryans, leading on to Haste to the Wedding and Boys of Blue Hill (both slowly)etc. I'm fine with other slower tunes, i.e. Fields of Athen Rye, Spinning Wheel, Fiddler's Green, etc.
I hasten to add that I am thoroughly enjoying it! I played my full repertoire (reasonably well I think) to an elderly Irish couple last weekend and it made not only their day but mine also!
So, when I join in, what will be the problem, (here's the ignorance bit now!) will I be playing higher than them or something?
I know you will all say turn up and give it a go but I'd love to know in advance what the problem will be, if there is one?
Many Thanks Again
Skipy
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Polkaholic
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8#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 18:49:35)
Reply to : skipyskiphire
However, I still dont understand what all the fuss is about, Why did the D/G player frown and Hhhmmm when I told him mine was a B/C box, I'm sure he wasn't belittling the B/C system or my box but he gave me the impression it would be awkward, if so why?
You'll have to ask him the question! Maybe he was worried you (or your box) could play only Irish tunes, and only at 100 mph? Or that you would use lots of ornate melodic decorations (thought to be inappropriate in English circles)? Or maybe it's just a completely unfamiliar system and he's unsure whether he ought to like it  . Do ask and let us know the answer!
No of course you won't be playing higher... as long as you're playing in the same key. Not sure whether many of the tunes you cited will be in the repertoire at that session though.
There must be some nice Irish sessions within striking distance of Rugby, maybe you should try both.
Steve
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Theo Gibb
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9#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 21:11:09)
Reply to : skipyskiphire
So, when I join in, what will be the problem, (here's the ignorance bit now!) will I be playing higher than them or something?
I play D/G and frequently play in sessions where there are B/C and C#/∂ players, we have no problem playing together. Its no different from playing with fiddles, concertinas guitars or any other instruments. As long as you know some tunes in common you'll have no problem.
The long face on the D/G player is probably a result of ignorance (in the sense of lack of knowledge rather than rudeness) There seems to be a type of player among both English and Irish traditions that sees the other tradition as something quite different, when in fact there is much in common.
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an-bosca-ceoil
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10#
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Rank:none
Posts:30
Registered:21/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 21:39:34)
Reply to : skipyskiphire
Reply to : PolkaholicB/C or D/G?Hi again,My sincere thanks to Steve and George for your comprehensive and helpful advice. I 'think' I now have the courage to turn up with my B/C box and sit amongst 'them' D/G box's...... Well... at leastI'll give it a try!However, I still dont understand what all thefuss is about, Why did the D/G player frown and Hhhmmm when I told him mine was a B/C box, I'm sure he wasn't belittling the B/C system or my box but he gave me the impression it would be awkward, if so why?As I stated I'm only a novice, no music training, I learn by reading the music andplaying by ear, up to now solo.I starting with The Kerry Polka, Rakes of Mallow, Peg Ryans, leading on to Haste to the Wedding and
I think that if you mentioned D/G at an "Irish" gathering, or more so at classes at an Irish centre, you would get the same frowns and Hhhmmm reaction because it is "different"
It is not so much a question of belittling as "better the devil you know", and many people are so pedantic that C/F is for the Germans, the French use G/C, in England D/G is the norm, but if you are going in for the diddley-eye-doh you need B/C.
While we are being pedantic Athenry, where the fields are, is a village in the West, would Athen Rye be some sort of cereal crop?
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A Nonny Mouse Esq
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11#
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Rank:none
Posts:122
Registered:26/09/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:05/09/2007 22:19:04)
Reply to : an-bosca-ceoil
While we are being pedantic Athenry, where the fields are, is a village in the West, would Athen Rye be some sort of cereal crop?
Turn it into whisk(e)y and I'll help you drink it.
Squeak.
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skipyskiphire
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12#
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Rank:none
Posts:9
From: Great_britain
Registered:03/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 01:03:13)
Reply to : A Nonny Mouse Esq
B/C / D/G..... Athen Rye/Athenry.....Whiskey/Whisky?
My Sincere Thanks to One and All for all your helpful advice and comments, I can honestly say I've learnt more in the last 48 hours here on this subject , than I have in the last 6 months elsewhere!
Athen Rye..... Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, I really should know better..... I was corrected on this error less than 12 months ago, Sorry Athenry Villagers, please accept my sincere apologies!
Back to the session invite, which is at a local Irish Pub , so hopefully there will be more than a few Irish tunes I know, if not, I'll play to myself in the corner! I've heard them play Haste to the Wedding and Boys from Blue Hill on a Saturday night, so..... I'll start, you all join in, AT MY SPEED ......... We'll soon see how sympathetic they are to learners?
I think this worry of mine started when a chap in a Killarney pub had two boxes, "Why have two?" I asked, "Different keys" he answered. Since then I've had this dread of joining in and.............. everybody else stops playing and looks at me in horror!
God Forbid!
Thanks again all,
Skipy
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C age ing
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13#
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Registered:20/08/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 09:12:58)
Reply to : skipyskiphire
I think this worry of mine started when a chap in a Killarney pub had two boxes, "Why have two?" I asked, "Different keys" he answered. Since then I've had this dread of joining in and.............. everybody else stops playing and looks at me in horror!
That's what I liked about the slide trombone, every note can be made into a bummer and you can vary the degree. My best score so far is one heart attack and two strokes, that is one concertina, a melodeon and a bodhran. Everyone cheered the last. Act like Les Dawson, pretend you don't notice.
Bill.
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Polkaholic
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14#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 16:05:00)
Reply to : C age ing
That's what I liked about the slide trombone, every note can be made into a bummer and you can vary the degree. My best score so far is one heart attack and two strokes, that is one concertina, a melodeon and a bodhran. Everyone cheered the last. Act like Les Dawson, pretend you don't notice.Bill.
Never underestimate the power of a half-step box for sounding bum notes of monumental egregiousness. Can't compete with a trombone, mind you, but when you approach that all important and dramatic accidental, hit the wrong note in the outer row and watch everybody around you dissolve into paroxysms of mirth. ('Vantage number one - can't do that with a mere-smear D/G, said the bicoloured python rock-snake.)
Steve
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Txbear
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15#
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Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 19:37:56)
... but when you approach that all important and dramatic accidental, hit the wrong note in the outer row and watch everybody around you dissolve into paroxysms of mirth. ('Vantage number one - can't do that with a mere-smear D/G, said the bicoloured python rock-snake.)
Well, well, that said, I think I'll stick with my one row Cajun C box and my Paulo Soprani F/Bb... I have to say that my forays into Irish music have all been with a penny whistle. I realize now that for versatilty"s sake, a D/G box might do nicely for both Irish and other folk areas...or perhaps an ADG three row, that could even work for Tejano/Norteno.
..."and now for something completely different"... Why didn't Monty Python ever showcase an accordion?
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andrew_w
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16#
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Rank:none
Posts:143
Registered:02/04/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 22:43:45)
Hi skipyskiphire, I notice from your profile that you're in Rugby. In that case you'll know all about Coventry.
If you can get over here on a Monday night, please feel free to join us at Whitefriars Olde Ale House, Far Gosford Street (near the old Odeon Cinema and what was the "Colin Campbell" in Jordan Well).
We play a mixture of English, Irish, Scottish and everything around and in-between (that includes Welsh of course). The only deliberate policies are a good balance between English and Irish (remembering the massive cross-over between the two traditions), respect, having fun and not being too precious :-)
If the usual people turn up (though every week seems to be different) you'll find at least 2 D/G players with quite different styles. Both play the same model of melodeon, though Clive tends to nick mine whenever possible :-D
You'll be more than welcome and we'll certainly join in on all the tunes you mention, whatever speed you choose to play them at!
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