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EeeJay
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1#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:10/10/2007 21:23:23)
Check out the stylings of the excellent Gilles Poutoux...
He started off, as most folks do in that part of the world, on a G/C, playing the local traditional tunes - laid down some good recordings with a band called Fubu...
Then he shifted to Irish style, B/C and C#/D - made a fair few recordings,and was instrumental in the formation of the Paris Ceilidh Band, the Rolling Notes Ceilidh Band, and a fair number of other groups playing straight, honest to goodnes Irish music...
However, one of his recent projects is a French trad CD, Danses des bergers, danses des loups by an ensemble callled Les Musiciens de Saint-Julien... bringing together his collective knowledge... using the B/C and C#/D as stand alone, stripped down melody instruments within that context. It works pretty well - the way a semitone tuned box carries a melodic line differently, and eschews any temptation to wallop down chords and basses!
If you go to the top R/H corner of the website, and press the upward facing arrow, it pulls down a number of tracks...
Ed J
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Polkaholic
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2#
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(Date Posted:10/10/2007 22:48:41)
Reply to : EeeJay
Check out the stylings of the excellent French diatonic whizz Gilles Poutoux...He started off, as most folks do in that part of the world, on a G/C, playing the local traditional tunes - laid down some good recordings with a band called Fubu...Then he shifted to Irish style, B/C and C#/D...
Actually, his recent book & CD package tells us that he has shifted again, to D/C#, under the influence of Joe Derrane. I wrote about this package briefly in
this here earlier thread. (And of course I'd be more than willing to write a more detailed review of it for the main site once the ball gets rolling there.)
Among many other surprising assertions for a French player to make, Gilles P says he has totally abandoned using the basses - with no regrets!
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oonrahnjay
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3#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:11/10/2007 04:22:38)
Reply to : Txbear
I wonder why the Irish system isn't used more widely by different musical traditions.
__. Yeah, I mostly play contradance stuff, French-Canadian (Quebec), and a smattering of Morris and English-session stuff. I have a couple of friends who play B/C. Man, they struggle. And -- to be totally frank -- generally, they don't sound very good. There are a few Quebec players who are monsters and they play "semi-tone" boxes, at least some of the time. And. -- to be totally frank ....
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Txbear
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4#
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(Date Posted:11/10/2007 17:39:53)
Reply to : oonrahnjay
Reply to : TxbearI wonder why the Irish system isn't used more widely by different musical traditions.__. Yeah, I mostly play contradance stuff, French-Canadian (Quebec), and a smattering of Morris and English-session stuff. I have a couple of friends who play B/C. Man, they struggle. And -- to be totally frank --generally, they don't sound very good. There are a few Quebec players who are monsters and they play "semi-tone" boxes, at least some of the time. And. -- to be totally frank ....
All very interesting. I actually can't imagine how a B/C box would work for some things such as Cajun. A single row four voice box just seems necessary. I suppose you could just play the C row, but it wouldn't sound the same anyway. The number of voices, the tuning, etc. I can however see how it would work for French music, Quebecois and some Spanish etc. I'll have to pursue the leads below. Thanks.
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wgwy
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5#
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(Date Posted:11/10/2007 19:50:06)
Reply to : Txbear
I wonder why the Irish system isn't used more widely by different musical traditions. Once I get well versed in my B/C box, . . . .
You're being a wee bit lax in your terminology in describing the B/C as an "Irish system", considering that it was invented and widely used in Scotland before being adopted in Ireland (see Irish Button Box history). The B/C is still the most widely-used 2-row system for Scottish music, whereas it seems to be getting gradually overtaken by the C#/D for Irish music - I get the distinct impression that anyone coming new to Irish music is going C#/D. We don't usually call the D/G the "English system", although it is more worthy of that designation than the B/C is to be called "Irish". We would probably be best just sticking to the key designations: B/C, C#/D, G/C, C/F, etc.
Bill Y
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EeeJay
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6#
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(Date Posted:11/10/2007 22:14:48)
Mind you Bill, sticking two semitone tuned rows together is older than that - the French were doing it at the turn of the century, and adding Stradella bass systems...
I refer to Pierre Monichon's esssay on various creations, such as the Maugein's C/B system, and the later evolution the accord?n mixte...
So I guess what Gilles Potoux is doing is taking the instrument back to it's roots...
Ed J
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oonrahnjay
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7#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:12/10/2007 18:19:36)
Reply to : EeeJay
Mind you Bill, sticking two semitone tuned rows together is older than that - the French were doing it at the turn of the century, (snip)
__. In "The New American Accordeon school", Elias Howe (published in Boston, 1857) includes instruction for playing a one row "accordeon" in "C" (I'm pretty sure that the instrument referred to is what we'd call a "flutina" but it's a button operated, bellows-driven free-reed instrument, so I won't quibble) and also a two-row with notes a semi-tone apart.
__. Howe published music instruction manuals (even with an instruction book for "melodeon" but this is the American pump-organ type instrument) and collections of ballroom dances in the mid-1800's in Boston. He was known for "borrowing freely" in those pre-effective-copyright times so almost certainly the contents of his book had been published earlier and probably in Europe, but the concept and instrution are quite valid for modern semi-tone instruments (except that the instruments covered in Howe's book (s) had the tonic note on the pull).
__. Not a big deal, but it shows that the system had been around for a while.
BH, NC USA
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Txbear
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8#
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Registered:23/05/2007
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(Date Posted:13/10/2007 07:42:46)
A B/C is Scottish huh? Very good to know. I'm learning all the time. I wonder if it would serve for Australian music as well. Seems like it would.
As far as boxes crossing traditions, John Connolly burned up a couple of Irish tunes at a workshop here in San Antonio at the International Accordion Festival on my Cajun C box. He had only brought his D one row and a C#/D box. When I told him mine was a C, he asked to borrow it for a couple of tunes. Never seen a Cajun player go that fast. It was my personal highlight of the festival.
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Old Leaky
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9#
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Registered:09/02/2006
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(Date Posted:15/10/2007 19:10:46)
Reply to : Txbear
I wonder why the Irish system isn't used more widely by different musical traditions.
I've got so many of the damned things (having added a B/C to my C#/D, both for Irish music) now that I've started using a pair as book-ends though not strictly musical I suppose ...
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georgegarside
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10#
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Registered:19/06/2006
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(Date Posted:16/10/2007 15:31:56)
Reply to : Old Leaky
 while I spend time trying to master my recent B/C acquisition. I'vealready decided that the "rogue F# on the push"is the trickiest part of the transition. When playing in G the B/C ceratinly does flow betterbut overallI reckonthat both systems aren't that far apart (only a tone, I hear you say). Maybe once I get to grips with tunes in D that initial impression will change...
just think of the BC as a one row in C with a full row of accidentals - or think of the C row as the 'white' notes & the B row as the 'black' notes . play on the row in C and just add one of these for key of G, 2 for D & 3 for A - then practice those 3 scales till you can play all your tunes in all 4 keys (CGDA) then add other keys.
The BCC# is even better being in effect a one row in C with 2 rows of accidentals facing different ways! can any other instrument offer that feature!
george ( in demistifying mode , says he hopefully)
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georgegarside
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12#
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Registered:19/06/2006
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 11:15:52)
Reply to : Old Leaky
Reply to : georgegarsideReply to : Old Leaky... then practice ... till you can play all your tunes in all 4 keys.Ha ha ha ha! I have enough trouble just trying to master the"home" key of each tune!And another almost obligatory plug for B/C/C#!
Jim
will refrain from a furthur plug for the BCC#!! but seriously just take the tune you can play best/easiest or whatever and give it a go in C then G and when you have got that sorted try same tune in D etc. The idea behind this is that it helps you to learn to play the instrument rather than just to be able to play particular tunes in so called 'home' keys. Its surprising how many keys quite well known tunes crop up in in different books. If you are playing by ear the sound will tell you where next to go once you have become fluent with the various scales.
For this transposing on the hoof the next note is the same distance up whatever scale you are playing in so insteaad of thinking in terms of named notes think in terms of next note 3 up then 1 down 2 up or whatever ( the ultimate box for this is the continental chromatic where you can if you want just set off on a different button and use exactly the same fingering to get any other ;key).
george
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oonrahnjay
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13#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 15:00:00)
Reply to : georgegarside
(snip) For this transposing on the hoof the next note is the same distance up whatever scale you are playing in so insteaad of thinking in terms of named notes think in terms of next note 3 up then 1 down 2 up or whatever
__. George, I'm trying to improve my "ear" skills and this sounds like one of the things that I should try. I've never been able to think "oh, key of G and that's a B and then D" like some people seem to; I've also never been able to hear "oh, that's two notes up the scale so both are on the push" (although I can often pick out notes that "sound like" they are on the push or pull for that key). But if we're playing in G and I hear someone play something, 'it just feels right' to play this button and then that one .. and as it turns out, it's a B and D. Does it help to be able to name intervals -- or even notes?
Regards, Bruce H, NC USA
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Theo Gibb
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14#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 15:36:40)
Reply to : Old Leaky
Well, the C#/D may well end up on the shelf (groan) while I spend time trying to master my recent B/C acquisition. I've already decided that the "rogue F# on the push" is the trickiest part of the transition. When playing in G the B/C ceratinly does flow better ...
Jim
They are not completely different you know. If you can play in G on the B/C box then the same fingering will give you A on the C#/D, and Am on the B/C is the same as Bm on the C#/D. So there is no need to think of them as two separate things to learn, the skills can be transferred. So just think of the second box as extending the range of keys you can play in with the fingerings that you know, and therefore each new fingering pattern you learn will enable you to play in two new keys.
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pushpullefty
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15#
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Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 16:03:55)
Txbear.
Humm, er... yus. BC's can play Australian music. Make no mistake about that. They seem to be the only tuning available in several music shops around town at the moment. I'm not sure what style of music you would play on them. It's up to the musician I dare say, but unlike Cajun Music which has Its' own Accordion, Australia is kind of confused in these areas. I would call these Irish Boxes, and I do know some great Irish muso's who play BC locally.
You could say that any music played in Australia was Australian, even if it happened to be something specific like ITM or Cajun. Some people feel that the tradition of Music we have here is a second hand one. Everything comes from another culture and we haven't actually got one of our own. A bit like saying Crocodile Dundee and Steve Urwin learned all about wrestling crocodiles from the Cajuns. I have heard some pretty good Aussie Aborigional Accordion playing and they aren't stupid enough to wrestle with crocs!
There used to be a nicely developed culture of Melodeon music in this part of Australia. An old time dance music with a big repetior, and a specific octaving technique of playing. Quite archaic, and similar to the really old time Cajun stuff. The favoured accordion was a German Box called a 'Mezon Grand Organ', which was a single row three stopper. These had a reputation similar to the 'tits noir' Accordions played by the Cajuns. The old guys swore by them. These same old guys refused to teach enthusiastic young musicians, and the inevitable happened. The tradition of real Australian Accordion playing died in the arse.
'Such is Life!' These were the last words of our favorite bushranger Ned Kelly, just before he was hanged.
Oh. These are only my views by the way.
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georgegarside
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16#
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Registered:19/06/2006
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 16:30:58)
Reply to : oonrahnjay
'does it help to name intervals/notes'
on balance I would say yes it helps to no exactly which button (and direction)gives which note for a couple of good reasons.
1. playing accross the row on a DG,CF ,GC box is much easier if you know where the 'alternative ' note is on the 'other' row
2. it makes working from the dots much more of a practical proposition even if only to the extent of sorting ut the right notes in the right order.
3. On a semitone box (BCetc) it is even more important as to play in a veriety of keys you need to know exactly where the accidentals are and as far as bellows/air control it is very useful to know where the 'other B & E is. I find the semitone boxes easier than the DG etc to play from the dots
4. the key to playing the 3 row chromatic box (whether by ear or from the dots) is to have a very good knowledge of what is where in the way of notes as only with this knowledge can maximum advantage be taken of the unique range of accidentals.
all of the above probably much less important on a one row
george
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Old Leaky
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17#
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Registered:09/02/2006
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 19:46:25)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
So just think of the second box as extending the range of keys you can play in with the fingerings that you know...
Er, Theo you know that my intention is to learn B/C fingering and then transfer that back to my C#/D to improve my versatility on that! We had that conversation at TCA!
Reply to : georgegarside
... just take the tune you can play best/easiest or whatever and give it a go in C then G and when you have got that sorted try same tune in D etc. ...
Yes, sounds logical, and simple enough - another thing to add to the groooowing list!
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Old Leaky
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18#
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Posts:65
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 19:48:54)
Two into one is better ...
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Polkaholic
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19#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
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(Date Posted:17/10/2007 20:31:41)
Reply to : Old Leaky
Er, Theo you know that my intention is to learn B/C fingering and then transfer thatbackto my C#/D to improve my versatility on that!
Hardly necessary to buy a B/C to do that, was it? Just learn all your D major tunes in E major and so on. I do that for fun. Well not with all my tunes mind you. It's very instructive.
Just for fun I have written a program to analyze ABC files and report the minimum number of bellows movements with which tunes can be accomplished on both C#/D and B/C systems. The results are of no practical use whatever but mildly interesting although subject to a few important caveats.
I put all Henrik Norbeck's Irish tunes into one big file (1624 of them) and the program can parse the whole lot and rewrite them, indicating all the presses and draws for both systems, in 6 seconds! Mind you I probably could have done it by hand in the time I spent ironing out the bugs in the program. (I have thought of modifying the program to produce tablature from ABC files but don't think I can be bothered.)
I've asked Henrik's permission to post the modified file but he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to give it. 
If he doesn't come through I'll just post the results in a few days, or maybe some other rewritten files.
Steve
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Txbear
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20#
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Registered:23/05/2007
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(Date Posted:18/10/2007 19:52:53)
There used to be a nicely developed culture of Melodeon music in this part of Australia. An old time dance music with a big repetior, and a specific octaving technique of playing. Quite archaic, and similar to the really old time Cajun stuff. The favoured accordion was a German Box called a 'Mezon Grand Organ', which was a single row three stopper. These had a reputation similar to the 'tits noir' Accordions played by the Cajuns. The old guys swore by them. These same old guys refused to teach enthusiastic young musicians, and the inevitable happened. The tradition of real Australian Accordion playing died in the arse.
Thank heaven the Cajun world is more generous. This last weekend at the International Accordion Festival in San Antonio, playing with Ed Poullard (fiddle) was a wonderful Cajun/Creole accordionist named Lawrence Ardoin who is a third generation one-row player (his grandfather is the famous Amedee' Ardoin). Lawrence has more than one child who is playing professionally now. There is great generosity in sharing the knowledge of the traditional music and also the skills to hand-build those wonderful Louisana (and Texas) made boxes. Ed Poullard of Beaumont Texas gave a workshop on Accordion Building that was most interesting.
I got my B/C box on Wednesday...thanks so much for all the tips below...they will be more that useful and much appreciated.
John in Austin, TX
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Old Leaky
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21#
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Rank:none
Posts:65
Registered:09/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:18/10/2007 23:21:27)
Reply to : Polkaholic
Hardly necessary to buy a B/C to do that, was it? Just learn all your D major tunes in E major and so on. I do that for fun.
Well, bully for you but don't forget you're dealing with a mere (non-reading) mortal here ...
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pushpullefty
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22#
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Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:19/10/2007 17:20:57)
Reply to : Txbear
There used to be a nicely developed culture of Melodeon music in this part of Australia. An old time dance music with a big repetior, and a specific octaving technique of playing. Quite archaic, and similar to the really old time Cajun stuff. The favoured accordion was a German Box called a 'Mezon Grand Organ', which was a single row three stopper. These had a reputation similar to the 'tits noir' Accordions played by the Cajuns. The old guys swore by them. These same old guys refused to teach enthusiastic young musicians, and the inevitable happened. The tradition of real Australian Accordion playing died in the arse.Thank heaven the Cajun world is more generous. This last weekend at the International Accordion Festival in San Antonio, playing with Ed Poullard (fiddle) wasa wonderful Cajun/Creole accordionist named Lawrence Ardoin who
Yes John.
It's a wierd story, but my experience as a box player in Australia, a place which still perceives the Accordion as a part of it's musical folk heritage, leaves me struggling to find a place and genre to play. It is my experience that young learners just don't exist these days. This is tragic. I feel proud to have been as active in Music and performed as frequently and widely as I have done, but this has been in playing Irish and Cajun music.
Australia suffers from something we call a 'cultural cringe'. For some reason modern Australia doesn't want to believe in itself. Neither does it want to celebrate it's past. To this end it treats it's artists and cultural treasures with absolute contempt. Many of our most talented artists and brilliant scientists/brains have to leave the country to achieve recognition on an international level before any acknowledgement of their work is forthcoming at home. I mean ANY at all. Unfortunately this can not apply to the Folk Arts, which are at a low ebb indeed.
It has been easier for me to learn Irish Music in Australia, which means obtaining recordings, hearing other Accordiionists, finding similarly interested Musicians to play with etc, despite it being a foreign Musical culture. More suprising perhaps to you is that Cajun, Zydeco and Tex Mex recordings are easier to find at specialist music stores than you could believe. I can not think of anywhere at all that I could buy Australian Accordion
Music. There are a lot of old folkloric recordings in the National Library in Canberra, but to access these is a long and tedious process.
A wonderful thing that strikes you as a Musical tourist travelling to Louisiana (something I'm lucky to have done) is the amount of positive energy flowing from anything to do with Music or the Cajun culture. It hits you very strongly, especially when you're at a session somewhere with a brand new Acadian on your knee, and some freindly character suggests that it's time you played a real Aussie tune. Err...
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Txbear
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23#
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Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2007 05:25:35)
Reply to : pushpullefty
A wonderful thing that strikes you as a Musical tourist travelling to Louisiana (something I'm lucky to have done) is the amount of positive energy flowing from anything to do with Music or the Cajun culture. It hits you very strongly, especially when you're at a session somewhere with a brand new Acadian on your knee, and some freindly character suggests that it's time you played a real Aussie tune. Err...
I find that rather sad. Australian music seems more admired in places other than Australia. Pete Seeger has been a fan for decades. And Yes, the energy in Louisiana is extraordinary. They even teach Cajun French in the grade schools and the young people have a growing pride in the culture. This has not just happened, but is the result of a concerted effort on the part of a dedicated group of wonderful people, people such as Ann Savoy (Marc Savoy's wife). She recognized very early the beauty and the value of Cajun music and culture (she was not Cajun born, but came to it as an adult, through Marc and the wonderful family and friends that surround him. To sit in the Savoy Music Store on a saturday morning with a new Acadian on your knee....ohhhh heaven should be so good! I hope the same thing happens for Australian folk culture before too much is lost.
For those who don't know it, the following link will tell you quite alot about Australian Folk music: http://folkstream.com/
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pushpullefty
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24#
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Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2007 16:34:17)
Reply to : Txbear
Reply to : pushpulleftyA wonderful thing that strikes you as a Musical tourist travelling to Louisiana (something I'm lucky to have done) is the amount of positive energy flowing from anything to do with Music or the Cajun culture. It hits you very strongly, especially when you're at a session somewhere with a brand new Acadian on your knee, and some freindly character suggests that it's time you played a real Aussie tune. Err...I find that rather sad. Australian music seems more admired in places other than Australia. Pete Seeger has been a fan for decades. And Yes, the energy in Louisiana is extraordinary. They even teach Cajun French in the grade schools and the young people have a growing pride in the culture. This has not just happened, but is the result of a concerted effort
I've been wracking my brain, Australian Music, Irish tuned box. Then I remembered. Mick Slocum, one time Box and Concertina player of the mega famous Bushwackers, and more recently the Sundowners played a Paolo Soprani BC. You can't get any more Aussie than that now can you! Also Martin Hanley of Captain Moonlight. Also Paolo BC. Jacko Kevans of the Horton River Band (now sadly elsewhere) played DD# which was Joe Cooleys favored tuning. These guys are all more on the Irish side of Australian Music though.
Please don't mistake me as saying there is no such thing as Australian Music. There is, and lots of it. However the old time ways of playing, and the old repetiors are very close to disappearing. Box players are thin on the ground (Some would breath a sigh of relief!). Younger musicians are more inclined to go for modern ITM, than an old, naive pastoral music with a really unique funky groove to it.
The last of the old boys are on the way out right now. The folk song collectors who went around the country documenting songs and dance tunes, things like Varsoviennas, Mazurkas, Schottisches, weird things that had survived from gold rush times and even before, are falling off their twigs too. Once in a while you might come across something at a Folk festival, there was a band called Harvest Moon with Jim Moir on C#D,( there's another one!) that specialized in Aussie tunes. They disbanded, but there are CDs available.
In some places people are doing lots. Peter Ellis in Bendigo, 100 miles north west of here is particularly active with the 'Wedderburn Old Timers'. Way up in the snowy mountain country the 'Nariel Creek Band', with a unique repetior is still at it despite the loss of several stalwarts. Maurie Gearish and his 'Gay Charmers' ?!! of Kerang up on the Murray were still performing at the National Folk Festival in Canberra up to a few years ago. I could go on.
But. I stand by what I said in previous postings. Our old Aussie Box Music is in its death throes. It will cark it very shortlly and the likes of them that played it will never be seen again.
I don't see any other Australians posting any messages to this forum. I would dearly love some one to disagree with this doom filled view of things!
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Txbear
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25#
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Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:21/10/2007 03:15:36)
Reply to : pushpullefty
The last of the old boys are on the way out right now. The folk song collectors who went around the country documenting songs and dance tunes, things like Varsoviennas, Mazurkas, Schottisches, weird things that had survived from gold rush times and even before, are falling off their twigs too. Once in a while you might come across something at a Folk festival
Cajun Music was in the same situation in the 1960's before people like the Savoy's came along. Before the Balfa brothers etc made such a great impression at the folk festivals...It seems to be a kind of generational thing. Much of the old music may disappear, quite a lot of the old old Cajun tradition has been lost, but the core of it all will remain somewhere. I remember reading that the old ballads documented in the Appalacian mountains were pretty much unchanged songs from Britain of the 17th century and before, songs that didn't exist in Britain any longer. The core of Aussie folk-ways will be preserved somewhere by someone who finds it worth doing.
It would be interesting to see comments by any Aussie readers of this board.
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And another almost obligatory plug for B/C/C#! 
