|
-risto-
|
1#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:23/10/2007 03:06:45)
Old Pigeon on the Gate, The
R:reel
H:Also played in G, see #314
De Danann: Jacket of Batteries
Z:id:hn-reel-400
M:C|
K:A
A2cA eAcA|G2BG eGBG|A2cA eAcA|1 dcBA GBEG:|2 dcBA GBdB||
% C#D: p dp dp dpdp dp dp d p dp dpd
% B/C: d
ce~e2 cA~A2|Bcde ~f3e|ceae cABc|dcBA GE~E2|
% C#D: p d pd pd pd p dp d
% B/C: p d
ceae cA~A2|Bcde ~f3e|ceae cABc|dcBA GBEG||
% C#D: pd p d pd pd pd p dp d p
% B/C: p d
"variations"
A2cA eAcA|G2Bc dcBG|A2cA eAcA|1 dcBA GABG:|2 dcBA GABd||
% C#D: dp d p dp dp dp dp dp dp
% B/C:
ceae cA~A2|Bcde fe~e2|Acec acec|dcBA GABd|
% C#D: dpd p d pd p d p d p dp dp
% B/C: p d
ceae cA~A2|Bcde f2ed|ceae cABc|dcBA GEGB||
% C#D: dpd p d pd p dpd pd p dp dpd
% B/C: p d
% This file contains 100 reels (#401 - #500).
% Minimum bellows moves in tune 1056 (The Old Pigeon on the Gate):
% C#D: 98
% B/C: 9
Did I totally missunderstand this or is the B/C press/draw description not good? I can see 7 directions d,p,d, p,d,p,d ie. six changes of movement in the frist measure...???
|
| Support us |
Create free forum and click the links below and your donations will make a difference here. |
 |
www.dinodirect.com
Online Huge Store for Various Cool Gadgets, Nintendo Wii Controller, iPod Charger, iPhone Cases, BlackBerry Cases, Laptop Accessories, Rechargeable Battery, LED Tactical Flashlight, iPod Earphones, iPhone Charger, Wii Controller, iPod Cables, Video Players, Music Players, Car Accessories, Cell Phone Accessories, Video Games Accessories and Hobby Gadgets.
If you use the code "DDLIFE", all orders will get 10% discount plus worldwide free shipping!
|
|
Polkaholic
|
2#
|
Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:23/10/2007 06:46:31)
Reply to : -risto-
Did I totally missunderstand this or is the B/C press/draw description not good? I can see 7 directions d,p,d, p,d,p,d ie. six changes of movement in the frist measure...??? Interesting stuff though once you get it fixed...
No, I'm pretty sure the B/C movements are good. The key is A major, so all the Cs and Gs are sharp. Which means that on a B/C box you can indeed get the entire first part of the tune on the draw. You could of course play the Es and Bs on the press, but as I said, the program assumes you always use these "magic" notes to save a movement. (To come up with a more realistic analysis would require some heavy-duty head scratching and rule formulation - probably beyond my capabilities and certainly beyond the amount of time I'd want to put into it.)
Steve
|
|
-risto-
|
3#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:23/10/2007 10:56:13)
Reply to : Polkaholic
No, I'm pretty sure the B/C movements are good. The key is A major,..
My apologies Steve, had just got home from work after one o'clock in the night and I totally missed that the tune was in A as I have played it only in Gmaj/Em.
Kinda funny though that less bellows moves are considered better while what you could virtually do is get a 3-row CBA or piano accordion to take the minimizing to it's full extent. In one of the links (boxplace or something) sent by Theo I saw a 3-row Hohner model with 12 basses, (with diatonic row tunings though) costing only 600 US new. Wouldn't be a big job to turn it into a CBA.
|
|
georgegarside
|
4#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:23/10/2007 12:48:45)
Reply to : -risto-
Reply to : PolkaholicNo, I'm pretty sure the B/C movements are good. The key is A major,..My apologies Steve,had justgot home from work after one o'clock in the night and I totally missed that the tunewas in A as I have played it only in Gmaj/Em (EDIT: and not with the box yet).Kinda funny though that less bellows moves are considered better while what you could virtually do is get a 3-row CBA or piano accordion to take the minimizingto it's full extent. In one of the links (boxplace or something) sent by Theo I saw a 3-row Hohner model with 12 basses, (with diatonic row tunings though)costing only 600 US new. Wouldn't be a big job to turn it into a CBA.
whilst a computor comparison of bellows revrsals using different box layouts is academicaly interesting it does little help with the choice of type of box!
The alternative notes (or what have been refered to as magic notes) can be used in many different ways aaccording to who is playing and what the tune is. Whilst it is arguable that minimising bellows reversals can make for 'smoother' playing the alternatives are just as likely to be used to either ease a particularly tricky bit of fingering or to minimise use of the air button by creating a natural reversal of the bellows. Thus they can be used for different purposes by different plaayers in the same or different parts of the same tune! With 2 rows of accidentals on a 3 row box the possibilities are even more interesting and the amount of belows travel can be kept very tight ( as per Sir Jimmy Shand) .
As far as the smooth v bouncy argument I feel there is little in it as far as the treble end is concerned as it is possible to play either system either way with good bellows control. In the right hands a one row can be played very 'smoothly' or with considerable 'bounce' according to the needs of the tune & its player.
Where the DG etc and the C#D playing in D have more bounce comes largely from the fact that it is easier and more natural to use the bass to 'drive the rhythm' . This can only be partialy achieved by BC boxes & then with difficulty if standard push/pull bass ae fitted. Presumably this is why some Irish players have modified bass playing same note/chord either way on some buttons - a sort of 'a bit of stradella' system.. It is also why most BCC# boxes use stradella bass.
long may the debate continue as I'm sure it will1
george
|
|
Polkaholic
|
5#
|
Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:23/10/2007 22:21:09)
Reply to : georgegarside
I agree it's a bit of an academic exercise, George, and of no great help in choosing one system over the other. But I had fun doing it.
I'm not sure I agree with you however when you say (at least as far as C#/D is concerned):
Where the DG etc and the C#D playing in D have more bounce comes largely from the fact that it is easier and more natural to use the bass to 'drive the rhythm'.
Remove the basses from the equation (as a lot of Irish players do - conveniently for the sake of this discussion), and to my ear there is still a definite difference in the feel that the two systems naturally produce (in the same small range of keys), even if the best players are able to minimize it.
Anyway as you say, let the debate continue, I'm keeping my mind and my options open! (Not open enough to go for a BCC# though  .)
Risto, even for those who feel that fewer bellows changes are better (and I'm not one of them), there has to come a point (as in certain A major tunes maybe) where fewer becomes too few...
Steve
|
Theo Gibb
|
6#
|
Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 00:18:07)
Reply to : Polkaholic
Risto, even for those who feel that fewer bellows changes are better (and I'm not one of them), there has to come a point (as in certain A major tunes maybe) where fewer becomes too few...
And of course you can play with even fewer bellows changes on a D/G 
|
|
Old Leaky
|
7#
|
Rank:none
Posts:65
Registered:09/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 01:30:31)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
And of course you can play with even fewer bellows changes on a D/G
A case of "in, out, in out, shake it all about"? Somehow "in, in, in, out..." doesn't quite cut it. 
|
|
NorthernMelodeon
|
8#
|
Rank:none
Posts:346
Registered:27/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 04:07:04)
Steve,
I think this was a really cool experiment! Really interesting, and I wish it would be done for D/G, just for comparison, although I understand the complexity involved.
Also, I think that the use of the Norbeck abc files does skew the results in favor of the B/C for smoothness, in part because of the inclusion of some ornamentation that would be played differently on the C#/D (or even on fourth-tuned boxes, if they were included in the analysis).
The relationship of a player to a set number of tunes has certainly changed over the last 5 or 6 decades (and probably before that), and the broader scope of tunes that are assumed to be in-demand makes it seem like the B/C is the way to go for smooth playing. But I wonder if one surveyed box players of both B/C and C#/D persuasions, whether one would find the same repertoire, or what? I'm not sure whether I'm expressing this clearly, but I think if you asked Jackie Daly to pick any 10 tunes and play them on a C#/D, and then you asked Joe Burke to do the same, you'd get different sets of tunes -- and then what would happen if you analysed the reversals in the tunes that they DID play? My sense is that the repertoire of tunes that are played in A is favored by the C#/D player to a similar extent that G tunes are favored by the B/C player, when smoothness is the goal. And is smoothness even the goal? Or "punchiness"? I think that the option of playing a given tune smoothly or with punch is more open to choice for the player of an A/D/G (or B/C/C#, there, I said it george, so you don't need to say it) -- but these clearly aren't the instruments of choice of Irish box players.
Anyhow, this was a very thought-provoking experiment and I'm glad that you were nerdy enough to do it, because I was nerdy enough to be interested in it!
-Andy
|
|
georgegarside
|
9#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 14:28:24)
Reply to : Old Leaky
Reply to : Theo GibbAnd of course you can play with even fewer bellows changes on a D/GA case of "in, out, in out, shake it all about"? Somehow "in, in, in,out..." doesn't quite cut it.
for playing on auto pilot when anebriated (slightly!) you cant beet blowsuckblowsuckblowsucksuckblow
george
|
|
Theo Gibb
|
10#
|
Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 15:28:00)
Reply to : georgegarside
for playing on auto pilot when inebriated (slightly!) you cant beet blowsuckblowsuckblowsucksuckblow george
Quite agree, but the point I was making is that a D/G or other fourth apart system [i[gives you the choice of whether to play push pull, or smooth. With semitone boxes you have have much less choice. I suggest that is a reason why fourth apart systems are the instrument of choice in such a wide range of musical styles. As far as I know semitone apart systems are the first choice system only for Irish and Scottish trad.
|
|
pushpullefty
|
11#
|
Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 16:09:16)
Interesting topic indeed.
Doesn't it all come down to taste though? I remember the times when the Foxhunters was a G reel. Now we play it in A. Lets just call it the Fiddlers preference. I far prefer it this way. It has a bite when played on a C#D that playing it in G doesn't give. It drives a bit like a Cajun second position tune. But comparing it to when I was playing DG off the G row, in 'push pull ' first position mode. Different grunt, still good grunt though.
Another tune that has an identity crisis is 'Boys of Marlin'. We all play this one in A. But off we go in D these days. Works nicely together A then D in a set. Learning the same tune in different keys is a great way to explore the different feels available. They aren't just tonal. The way the instrument works drives the motor that 'emotes' your music!
A few months back a flute player, and a BC castagnari girl started playing tunes in F at our session. Sweet key, sure thing, and very unusual. Nobody else could even pretend to play along. Were they just being precious? The BC was just working the same fingering system that a C#D uses to play in G. The flute player was doing something quite unusual for a simple system flute though!
Sharon Shannon played here a couple of weekends ago. My pocket still feels the strain of that occasion. She had two Accordions. Both boxes were sharp, CC# and DD#. She obviously values the musical difference that playing different systems gives. Listen and you will hear.
To my befuddled mind, some BC playing is very beguiling. An Irish quality if there ever was one. There is something about it that makes it totally different from C#D or DG playing. It gets into a very deep Irish musical place. Players that come to mind. Mick Mulcahy's first record. Great playing in anyones book. Conor Keane and Josephine Marsh. Conor is now playing C#D, but when he was on BC, he had a completely other worldly quality. It wasn't just that he had stuffed screwed up newspapers into his box in an attempt to make it sound 'nicer' or so he claimed!. Jo was just magic. Still is. This is despite my deep preference for push pull styles of playing. I'm sorry, no offence intended, but nothing will convince me that listening to Joe Burke is a good way to spend my time!
The modern preference for C#D in ITM is interesting. I applaud it, and approve wholeheartedly. But is it being driven by musicians from outside Ireland though I wonder? But then, would it matter if it was?
|
|
Polkaholic
|
12#
|
Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:24/10/2007 16:29:04)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
Quite agree, but the point I was making is that a D/G or other fourth apart system gives you the choice of whether to play push pull, or smooth. With semitone boxes you have have much less choice.
Yeah but we halfsteps are never stumped for a note... There's a price to pay for any of the choices we get in pushpull boxes, and to me it's all about making the most of the possibilities and putting up with the limitations of whatever system we plump for. If there were a perfect bisonorous box, we'd all be playing it. (Before you say anything, George, it's too heavy!)
Replying to Andy, in writing a similar program to anaylze files for D/G boxes you'd hit the biggest limitation of that type of system - a lot of the tunes in a collection like Norbeck's would simply be unplayable for lack of accidentals. Unless you allowed assumed a 2?row system, or you knew which low notes had been reassigned.
Regarding what to do with notes for which there was a choice of bellows direction (nearly all of them on a quint box): the program TablEdit, which is something of a standard among French players for writing tablature, and which I was experimenting with recently, imports ABC files and spits out a score and tablature for you. Its way of handling the dilemma is to assign every note to a pull if available! I could adapt my program for a D/G system on that basis very quickly, but the results would be much dafter than even those that I produced for halfstep boxes.
As for Andy's point about the types of tunes that B/C and C#/D players, left to their own devices, will choose, I'm sure you're right. If you looked at Joe Burke's recorded output, you wouldn't find a high proportion of A-major tunes, I'm quite sure, and neither would you find many G-dorian tunes in Jackie Daly's catalogue. On the other hand players of that standard can tackle anything they want without too much trouble.
But most box players aren't left to their own devices, because for many the primary musical forum is a session, and unless you stick with your own small group every week and never travel, you are going to have to tackle the core repertoire on either system, or sit out on too great a number of tunes.
Going back to tackling anything, I recently heard quite the most extraordinary feat of halfstep box playing I've yet encountered: Johnny Og Connolly (son of the noted one-row player Johnny Connolly) has recorded one of Bach's sonatas (or partitas) for solo violin - on a B/C box. Amazing stunt, and he pulls it off very well. (There's only one brief passage where you can hear him struggling a bit not to fall off.) Check it out if you get the chance - it's on a record he made with Charlie Lennon.
Steve
PS I see Geoff Lefty has replied while I was composing this - some good points. But briefly, fiddlers are pushing G tunes down into F these days for a nice mellow sound, a change from the brightness of A. And have you heard Joe Burke's latest output? There are clips on his website at http://www.joeburkemusic.com/ He's playing a magnificent-sounding Bertrand Gaillard box is some strange tuning - it sounds low to me, maybe a C/C#. A lot more pleasant than his early stuff on those "drowned" Paolos!
|
|
NorthernMelodeon
|
13#
|
Rank:none
Posts:346
Registered:27/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:25/10/2007 02:27:19)
Reply to : Polkaholic
On the other hand players of that standard can tackle anything they want without too much trouble.
Yes, you're right, these guys are able to handle any key they'd like!
What I mean in general is that the culture of session repertoires, and before that, dance bands, that introduced some new factors in terms of key choice. It is a relatively recent phenomenon to have to play this variety of tunes in specific keys with other players (ala in a group or session) rather than solo, at least that is what Brendan Breathnach indicates. I think that people used to just play the tune in whatever relative key suited them and their instrument, whatever instrument they had on hand, so if it was a C melodeon or harmonica that they had, and they went home after hearing a tune at a dance, with the tune bouncing between their ears, they just played it as it came out of the box, and the specific key was not a concern. In some cases the instrument choice even changes the pitch of the note that could be C# or C or somewhere in between in many of the tunes. I also think that the roster of tunes in a given, average session player's repertoire today is staggering compared to the solo players of the past (except for, perhaps, a few). Finally, the availability of recordings has solidified key choices.
As far as the D/G analysis goes, one could conduct the study with the standard accidental buttons at the "bottom" of the keyboard (actually, the top near the chin). Or even analyze the A/D/G box with standard accidentals.
|
|
Polkaholic
|
14#
|
Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:28/10/2007 03:06:57)
Reply to : pushpullefty
The modern preference for C#D in ITM is interesting. I applaud it, and approve wholeheartedly. But is it being driven by musicians from outside Ireland though I wonder? But then, would it matter if it was?
Dunno, Geoff. Possibly more new players outside Ireland are going for C#/D than B/C these days (or a higher proportion than before), but that may because of the weight of tradition and the greater momentum of the B/C in Ireland - takes a long time for a big ship to slow down and stop...
But I can't imagine that changeovers by people like Conor Keane are influenced by trends outside Ireland. More and more established Irish-born players seem to be publicly flirting with C#/D anyway, which may lead to a commitment once they've had time to transfer their entire repertoire over to the new main squeeze. I know one excellent player in Boston who now plays C#/D pretty much exclusively after 20 years at the B/C and he told me it took him 4 years to make the switch definitive.
Steve
|
|
pushpullefty
|
15#
|
Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:28/10/2007 04:08:51)
Reply to : Polkaholic
Dunno, Geoff. Possibly more new players outside Ireland are going for C#/D than B/C these days (or a higher proportion than before), but that may because of the weight of tradition and the greater momentum of the B/C in Ireland - takes a long time for a big ship to slow down and stop...But I can't imagine that changeovers by people like Conor Keane are influenced by trends outside Ireland. More and more established Irish-born players seem to be publicly flirting with C#/D anyway, which may lead to a commitment once they've had time to
It's an interesting aspect of Boxology, one I often think about. BC and C#D. Hmmm. The diversity in playing styles is one of the fabulous things about ITM. So many people playing what is commonly understood to be note perfect music, but every one plays with a unique individual style. It's one of the great things about being human I suppose! The stylistic split between accordion tunings just adds more diversity. Another flavour in the stew. Without it there wouldn't be that subtle difference. The stew would be good, but not quite as good.
Joe Fitzgerald came out with a C#D Saltarelle in the mid '90's. Why I'll never know. His playing, always a wonder to behold, became utterly awesome to me. He had always played quite a few tunes on the push on the BC (ieC), and as BC G position is A position on C#D thats what happened. Lots of G tunes turned into A. But he worked the Saltarelle pretty hard, and I think it wore out. Joe has an attitude about a box being able to stand the rigors of sessiondom. He tests them rather brutally. I once tuned an accordion for him. I never saw him play that accordion again (Whoops). I think the newly softened reed wax maybe didn't hang on once it underwent a pressure test. He's back on the BC now though.
Your comment about going from C#D to BC being something that would require a brain transplant hits the nail on the head with me though. I'm happy with DGA positions on the D box, but if I'm gunna play in E it had better be a pentatonic blues thing. Not that usual in ITM. I attended a workshop at the National Folk Festival years ago when Jo Marsh was teaching. I was enthralled with that slower simpler feel that she had. Then I went off and tried out a few tunes on the C#D in E (BC D position) It wasn't my thing at all. I get a bad taste in my mouth just thinking about it.
I do like the C#D best though. It has just got an edge on hitting the rhythm, all the bellows moves. You eventually get to a stage in playing when things get smoother, the humpity dumpity Englishy feels(No offence intended) diminish, and working on the push pull really makes sense. It has a simpler, some how more diatonic, correct feel about it too. Possibly because of the BC tendancy to fit stray notes in with faster runs and ornaments.
|
|
Polkaholic
|
16#
|
Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:28/10/2007 22:41:42)
Reply to : pushpullefty
I do like the C#D best though. It has just got an edge on hitting the rhythm, all the bellows moves. You eventually get to a stage in playing when things get smoother, the humpity dumpity Englishy feel (No offence intended) diminish, and working on the push pull really makes sense. It has a simpler, some how more diatonic, correct feel about it too. Possibly because of the BC tendancy to fit stray notes in with faster runs and ornaments.
Is nobody going to step forward to argue with this man and assert the superiority of the B/C? If not I might have to myself, to stop things from getting too consensual, even if I agree with everything you say there Geoff.
Interesting about Joe Fitz (stupendous player) but then he started life on C#/D did he not?
Somebody who might argue with you is our mutual acquaintance Graeme Smith. Have you read his paper about B/C playing in general and the Fitzes in particular?* I thoroughly enjoyed it and can recommend it to anybody interested in diatonic accordions in general and Irish-style ones in particular.
But I found a couple of things about it contentious, one being that he made much of the "modern style" of B/C playing becoming so popular because at last it allowed box players to emulate fiddle settings of tunes such as Michael Coleman's famous "Bonnie Kate", before revealing that both Joe Burke (and Joe Fitz) played the tune in C! (My question is 1) so why did they need a B/C to do that? They could have done it with all the fancy ornaments and in the original key on a C#/D and 2) isn't this an admission of the drawbacks of the B/C system, rather than a demonstration of its superiority?)
The other thing that struck me as curious is that he seemed to imply, towards the end of the paper, that the upsurge in interest in the C#/D that was starting when he was writing in the 1980s was being spearheaded by bearded middle-class folk revivalists (as opposed to good clean-shaven working-class lads like the Fitzes) and was therefore somehow irrelevant. Jackie Daly had a beard, it's true, but he was hardly middle-class or a revivalist - unlike Smithy, who qualified on all three counts!
Cheers
Steve
* A paper by Melbourne ethnomusicologist Graeme Smith. Until recently, a PDF could be downloaded for free from the University of Illinois Press. You can now download it for $7 here (or possibly get it for nowt via inter-library loan or similar procedure).
|
| Support us |
Just click the links below and your donations will make a difference here. |
|
|
|
NorthernMelodeon
|
17#
|
Rank:none
Posts:346
Registered:27/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:29/10/2007 16:13:20)
Hi Steve,
I couldn't agree with you more about the Graeme Smith paper.
Interestingly, I met a number of B/C players in NY who had begun playing on melodeons (often in C), and who would gleefully reminisce by playing a tune or two on my M?odie -- the sound of which they loved. One player (RIP) remarked that if melodeons with a sound like that had been around "back then" (the 1960s) he might have continued to play the one.
-Andy
|
|
Txbear
|
18#
|
Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:29/10/2007 22:53:46)
Learning the same tune in different keys is a great way to explore the different feels available. They aren't just tonal. The way the instrument works drives the motor that 'emotes' your music!
You weren' kidding about the Nerd factor! It is interesting, though pretty much out of my realm of experience. I found the above discussion about changing keys for tunes most interesting. In Cajun music, many tunes are locked into one key, that is largely a factor of the dominance of C tuned boxes, but some tunes benefit from being played in other keys. "Jai Passe Devant Ta Port" sings in D, "Le Flames de Enfer" makes you shiver in a lower key such as Bb or even A. The key a tune is played in can add (or detract) so much to the emotion and mood. Then there are all the compatability problems when other instruments come in. I understand fiddle players hate Bb. Maybe that's why you rarely see a fiddle in a Zydeco band.
|
|
|
