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pushpullefty
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1#
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Rank:none
Posts:15
Registered:25/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 14:36:41)
Think about what you're doing here. A BC is a really big step for most people who have been playing push pull box. In irish Music you will be playing a lot in D,G, A, Em, Am. D on a C row is third position for a Zydeco player. You might be playing lots of blues, being from Big Texas and all, you might be used to it. But. If you are a real push pull boy, stick with something like a DG. You can practice your G tunes on the D row until the yellow peril realize that a lot of us are playing C#D, and start making Morganes in that. Alternatively, look at other makers. It really depends a lot on the music you intend to play. You are fortunate living where you do, from an accordion point of view. It's not so hot in Australia where the yellow peril looms ever larger. We are so close to China, although I am yet to see a chinese Hohner. We are always about twenty years behind the times here.
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skipyskiphire
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2#
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Rank:none
Posts:9
From: Great_britain 
Registered:03/09/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 14:40:23)
Reply to : Txbear
I want to get a box that can be used for Irish music and am thinking of buying a Hohner Morgane........
Hi,
I'm one step ahead of you here, if you check out my recent query (B/C or D/G, last post 07/09), you will see that I am the proud owner of a Hohner Morgane B/C. You'll also see lots of comprehensive and useful advice amongst the replies.
I'm only able to advise as a 'practicing hard novice' but after sitting in with a few sessions amongst D/G boxes, I am getting along fine with the B/C, with no apparent problems. I also have a D/G box at home and I do note that, as a novice, certain tunes seem to be easier to play on the D/G (eg, Haste to the wedding cus of the fiddly crossing rows bits).
I can play it on the B/C but slower........ I'm sure it will come with practice, A Kerry man (Jimmy) in Buckleys Bar, Killarney, Ireland plays it on a B/C and I mean 'plays' it.
So, the bottom line from a non-techie' If you'll be playing mostly Irish, then go for the B/C otherwise play safe with the D/G.
PS. Everyone, including me, seems impressed with my Morgane, if not the playing!
Regards
Skipy | |
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Polkaholic
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3#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 15:21:45)
Reply to : pushpullefty
You can practice your G tunes on the D row until the yellow peril realize that a lot of us are playing C#D, and start making Morganes in that.
I was recently in contact with the Canadian distributor of Hohners trying to get a C#/D box for a student, either a Double Ray or preferably a Morgane, and was told that Hohner have no current plans to make a C#/D Morgane. And he didn't seem very keen on asking them to make one - not my first experience of dealers/concessionnaires showing a distinct lack of interest in getting the customer what he or she wants. Maybe it's just the diatonic-box sector that is 20 years behind the times all around the world! BTW Geoff, the Morgane line is supposed to be made in Europe, not China.
I'd echo what Geoff is saying - B/C will probably involve a big mental readjustment (Brendan Mulkere reportedly described the move to B/C as requiring a "brain transplant") and unless you are going to make a big commitment to Irish music on it, I'd go for D/G or C#/D. D/G will be more familiar to you, but you'll be stuck with the limitations as to keys you can play in as a D tin whistle. Actually, you can do more on a D tin whistle, since you can't half-hole (half-button?) on a box.
Steve
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Txbear
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4#
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Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 17:33:20)
Reply to : Polkaholic
I was recently in contact with the Canadian distributor of Hohners trying to get a C#/D box for a student, either a Double Ray or preferably a Morgane, and was told that Hohner have no current plans to make a C#/D Morgane. And he didn't seem very keen on asking them to make one - not my first experience of dealers/concessionnaires showing a distinct lack of interest in getting the customer what he or she wants. Maybe it's just the diatonic-box sector that is 20 years behind the times all around the world! BTW Geoff, the Morgane line is supposed to be made in Europe, not China.I'd echo what Geoff is
Thanks for the illuminating additions to the earlier D/G vs B/C discussion. I know about the push/pull transition from attempting to learn a piano accordion. I found myself changing bellows direction all the time even when unneccessary. There is a rythmn to it that is hard to get away from. The comment about the transition to a B/C being harder is right on target, but I do understand the B/C is generally played with more push/pull than a C#D. So, the transition may not be too great. I am getting better every day at playing across the rows on my F/Bb box, running scales on the push or the pull.
As far as the Morgane, the D/G might be the best for me. It would still allow me to play a lot of Irish music (after all, those are the two most common keys), but I am still leaning towards a B/C (all those sharps!) Of course, I could just buy another Cajun one row tuned in D and only bring my whistle(s) to the Irish sessions. A lot less to carry. Seeing John B. Connolly play at the International Accordion Festival in San Antonio this Saturday may decide it all for me. It may either inspire me or overwhelm me such that I decide not to even try going Irish with the accordion. I'll let you know.
Thanks again,
John in Austin
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Polkaholic
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5#
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Rank:none
Posts:316
Registered:18/07/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 18:26:56)
Reply to : Txbear
I do understand the B/C is generally played with more push/pull than a C#D.
No. At least, the conventional wisdom is that, in common Irish keys, B/C involves fewer changes in bellows direction that a C#/D.
But as someone said memorably, for every complex question there is a simple answer that is wrong. Well this is a simple question, not a complex one, but the simple answer (B/C = less push/pull) can be wrong.
Let's take the scale of D. You can play a scale of D on a B/C box with 3 bellows movements. On a C#/D it will take you 5, even using the outer row F#.
Take the passage A-B-c#-d-e. On B/C, you can do this in one bellows movement. On C#/D, you are going to need four.
Based on these two pieces of information, it seems pretty clear that the B/C wins the bellows economy competition.
Or does it? It all depends on the key, and whether the tune is built mainly around linear phrases or arpeggios. I analyzed how a tune of the arpeggio type, The Cameronian Reel, would work on on both systems. By my reckoning, the A part of this tune can be accomplished in 9 bellows movements on C#/D but requires no less than 15 on the B/C. This is mainly down to fact that to play a DF#A arpeggio on B/C, you have to change bellows direction for the F#. Which seems pretty perverse. The payoff (if you like that kind of thing) is the fluidity you get in the middle of the range, that is, between A and e.
But, let's assume that the conventional wisdom is right and that the BC does involve fewer bellows changes - and in many non-arpeggiated tunes it undoubtedly does. There is a tradeoff - you have to use more buttons, ergo more flying around the keyboard. Your D major scale can be played with 4 buttons on C#/D. On B/C you'll be using 7. As well as requiring more mobility, this (I think) makes simple ornamentation trickier.
Another related difficulty of the B/C is that the scale peters out at top c' - no high d'. And the notes above g in the top octave start to get out of synch, spread over more buttons. Combined with your rogue f# on the push, this makes many high passages (to my C#/D brain) excessively complicated.
But of course whatever system you go for, you will get your brain around it, or transplanted, soon enough with practice.
A long answer to a question you didn't ask but there. I could have just said, no, C#/D involves more push-pull. (Generally.) 
Cheers
Steve
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georgegarside
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6#
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Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 19:11:44)
Reply to : Txbear
'all those sharps'
why not go the whole hog & try BCC# - all those sharps plus the same again for free!
george
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oonrahnjay
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7#
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Rank:none
Posts:260
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 20:14:55)
Reply to : Txbear
the D/G might be the best for me. It would still allow me to play a lot of Irish music (after all, those are the two most common keys)
__. And you also can easily "fake" A major and (slightly more difficult in my opinion) C major. And when you add A minor, E minor, and B minor, you've come equipped for many keys. And that doesn't even cover Dorian and Mixolydian modes (which may be just the ticket for a D/G ... or total terrors).
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Theo Gibb
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8#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 21:30:03)
Reply to : georgegarside
Reply to : Txbear'all those sharps'why not go the whole hog & try BCC# - all those sharps plus the same again for free!george
Well there is a surprising suggestion, I'd never have thought you'd suggest that George 
Correction the extra row is not free - you pay extra money when you buy them, and you carry extra weight when you play 
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-risto-
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9#
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Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:08/10/2007 23:34:34)
Tx,
I would say that do what you think is best for you, don't let too many opinions distract you. I don't find the B/C a difficult system at all, and there are lots of fine players doing great stuff with it. In life, isn't it better to make a few mistakes when trying than never even try.
To be frank, now that I have been intensively practising with it, about 3.5 months now, I have decided to get such a box (B/C) that I will never urge a better one, probably a 23 button Castagnari with 12 basses.
If you decide to go to the B/C Morgane direction, be sure to check that it has the newer Paolo Soprani bass layout and that the wetness is what pleases you.
EDIT: this 'n that...
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Theo Gibb
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10#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:09/10/2007 13:01:49)
Reply to : Polkaholic
No. At least, the conventional wisdom is that, in common Irish keys, B/C involves fewer changes in bellows direction that a C#/D.
But what is also worth noting is that playing the common Irish keys on a D/G box can involve the fewest bellows changes of all. All of D can be played on the draw with the exception of the D note, and likewise for G. A too all on draw except for D and of course depending on which direction your G# plays if you have one.
A more important consideration is how you learn. If you just teach yourself then its up to you. If you plan to learn from some of the published Irish box tutorials, or if you plan to go to Irish workshops you will find that it's not much help if your box is D/G.
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Veloce
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11#
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Rank:none
Posts:66
Registered:19/09/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/10/2007 17:23:41)
Reply to : -risto-
In life, isn't it better to make a few mistakes when trying than never even try.
That's so true. I agonized over what melodeon to buy next for a very long time. I played Gary Chapin's G/C Pastourelle at the 2006 Northeast Squeeze-In. I was enchanted by the sound compared with my D/G Bou?e. I spent the next year debating with myself the relative merits of a D/G or G/C box for the music I play. Then at the 2007 Squeeze-In I saw, heard and had a opportunity to play a G/C Lorelei. I had the same reaction all over again. But this time I decided to take a chance on a G/C. I ordered a G/C Lorelei through The Button Box. Hopefully it will be here by the end of the year. And I started teaching myself to play in A of the D/G box because that will translate into playing in D on the G/C. I don't know how well this will work out in the long run, but I like the sound of the big Saltarelle G/C's so much that I was willing to take the chance.
--Doug
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Txbear
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12#
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Rank:none
Posts:85
Registered:23/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/10/2007 17:30:01)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
If you just teach yourself then its up to you. If you plan to learn from some of the published Irish box tutorials, or if you plan to go to Irish workshops you will find that it's not much help if your box is D/G.
My decision seems to have been made. I just won a B/C box on Ebay. A "learner" box originally sold by Billy McComiskey. See the link here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200159043617&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=010
Paid only $345 with shipping, a small investment. I believe it was made in China just as are the Hohner Panthers etc. It is tuned to Billy's specs, so it should be fairly dry etc. It should be good enough for starters and help me decide if I want to invest in a quality box.
I need to ask now what videos etc would be best to buy to help me learn. John William's videos? or "The Box: Guide to Irish Button Accordion" ? Somehing else? I am a fairly experienced Cajun one row player and ain't bad on my F/Bb two row.
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