|
Lester Bailey
|
1#
|
Rank:none
Posts:344
Registered:27/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 10:16:09)
My understanding is that the quality of the reeds is all important to speed. Machine cut reeds have slack tolerances tdue to the process so need more air to start them and a re thus slower to speak. Hand cut reeds have tighter tolerances and speak quicker.
|
| Support us |
Create free forum and click the links below and your donations will make a difference here. |
 |
www.dinodirect.com
Online Huge Store for Various Cool Gadgets, Nintendo Wii Controller, iPod Charger, iPhone Cases, BlackBerry Cases, Laptop Accessories, Rechargeable Battery, LED Tactical Flashlight, iPod Earphones, iPhone Charger, Wii Controller, iPod Cables, Video Players, Music Players, Car Accessories, Cell Phone Accessories, Video Games Accessories and Hobby Gadgets.
If you use the code "DDLIFE", all orders will get 10% discount plus worldwide free shipping!
|
|
georgegarside
|
2#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 11:23:52)
Reply to : -risto-
Once in a while I hear someone say that Hohner boxes are good and reliable working tools but that they aren't very fast to play.What is the reson and what should be done to make them faster? What are the most important characteristics of afast playing box say,likea Castagnari?
It all depends on what is meant by fast, in my experience a hohner (can only speak for the German made ones) in good condition will play as fast as most people want it to ( or as fast as they are capable of playing properley without losing rhythm , phrasing and dynamics) eg up to the speed required for rapper dance and for good danceable jigs, reels , rants etc.. I agree with Lester re handmade reeds 'acting' quicker but this doesn't necessarily make a box 'faster to play' all by itself, so to speak. Good fast playing requires a great deal of developed skill irrespective of the make of box - Perhaps 'bad' fast playing is easier on an expensive box for those who wish to do so without developing the skills! In other words a good player can play pretty fast (where appropriate) on a hohner but will do so with less physical effort on a box with top quality reeds and just as importantly ultra smooth quick acting mechanism anad 'just right' spring tension on the levers.
george
|
|
C age ing
|
3#
|
Registered:20/08/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 11:45:42)
Certain that Theo will guide us all but isn't the 'skill' in reed making more reliant on the accuracy of the central positioning and vertical setting enabling the reed to start and sustain and accuracy of the finishing of the reed holder?
Of course this costs money and is another reason to send your box to your tech.
Bill.
|
|
an-bosca-ceoil
|
4#
|
Rank:none
Posts:30
Registered:21/05/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 21:53:09)
Reply to : georgegarside
Reply to : -risto-Once in a while I hear someone say that Hohner boxes are good and reliable working tools but that they aren't very fast to play.What is the reson and what should be done to make them faster? What are the most important characteristics of afast playing box say,likea Castagnari?It all depends on what is meant by fast, in my experience a hohner (can only speak for the German made ones) in good condition will play as fast as most people want it to ( or as fast as they are capable of playing properley without losing rhythm , phrasing and dynamics) eg up to the speed required for rapper dance and for good danceable jigs, reels , rants etc.. I agree with Lester re handmade reeds 'acting' quicker but this doesn't necessarily make a&nbs
For what it is worth, I concur with what I think you say about the shortcomings of Erica/Pokerwork mechanisms, but don`t they do well for what is little more than a collection of wire and bent tin!
When all is said and done they are supposed to be "bread & butter" models and comparing them with Castagnaris is a bit like asking why BMWs keep beating my Lada off the traffic lights (perhaps TAM pistons would improve response)!
What did interest me was your saying you could only speak for German Made ones. Does that imply that you have never tried a "Chinese" one or simply that, like me, you have heard people slagging them off?
I know that Hohner did have some problems when they were making the move but I would like to know why they are still getting bad press, unless there is a bit of "inverse snobbery" involved.
I know that the finish of the fingerboard and buttons is not quite so "nice" but there were changes in finish, especially inside, from time to time while they were still in Germany.
Someone did tell me that they were "forever" breaking springs but, apart from this, no one seems to come up with anything specific. Perhaps someone else will enlighten me even if you cannot.
|
|
georgegarside
|
5#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 23:09:50)
Reply to : an-bosca-ceoil
The reason I said I can only comment on the capabilities of the german made pokerwords is because I have played them for many years & know exactly what to expect from one in good order. I have only briefly 'tried' the chinese made ones in shops & so do not feel qualified to comment on their 'feel' for consistant fast playing or on the consistancy between individual boxes. I made the distinction between german & chinese hohners so as not to inadvertantly mislead anybody. Perhaps somebody with long term experience of the chinese version would like to comment.
george
|
|
-risto-
|
6#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:04/08/2007 23:35:25)
Reply to : georgegarside
Reply to : -risto-... a good player can play pretty fast (where appropriate) on a hohner but will do so with less physical effort on a box with top quality reeds and just as importantly ultra smooth quick acting mechanism anad 'just right' spring tension on the levers.
I don't have any of the skills you mention, specially the changing of bellows direction is a mystery to me when thinking of fast playing. But taking it from the technical perspective,I was thinking about the springs as the second thing to improve.
The first thing what came to mind (in the Morgane) was the travel of the buttons. It seems that though the button mechansim works softly and accurately, I can find a spot where the volume does not increase if the button is pressed further. This would, I guess, mean that the rest of the travel is unnecessary. When I play my fingers always want to press until something hard gets on the way (probably comes from guitar playing), I don't know if this a right or wrong way to play (tell me) but with a shorter travel I can imagine that it would be lighter to play with this style of playing (also the spring tension would be less with shorter travel).
I'm sure Lester and you are right about the reeds, some of these reeds breathe little too much in my mind, specially in the low and high register. I guess there is nothing one can do about that except get hand made reeds.
|
|
georgegarside
|
7#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 01:15:27)
Reply to : -risto-
. It seems that though the button mechansim works softly and accurately, I can find a spot where the volume does not
Quite right! the pallet only needs to be lifted off the hole by quite a small amount to let sufficient air in/out to play as loudly as the box is capable of. Any furthur degree of opening makes absolutely no difference to anything. The answer therefore is either learn to tap the buttons swiftly and lightly so you don't shove them down their holes or if necessary to fit some sort of travel restictor which many people do on hohner pokerworks & ericas & which has been covered on these forums at some length.
The buttons opperate essentialy as on/off switches and have two positions only - up or down! i.e. palette closed or open. Different degrees of opening are difficult to achieve in practice and are unnecesary as control of the dynamics (volume variation) is done by varying bellows pressure - not degree of button depression. Whilst course movements of the bellows call for flexing of the elbow joint ( yours not the boxes!) the fine control over the dynamics comes from skilful use of the wrist to change volume irrespective of what the elbow is up to. This enables you to vary the volume on or even during an individual note adding character & interest to your music.
george
1) fine control of the dynamics is carried out with small wrist movements irrespective of what the elbow is up to. This technique enables changes of volume to be made on individual notes and within the duration of a single note.
Skilful manipulation of the bellows is in a sense like manipulation of the bow is to a fidler and it is this that enables 'character' to be added to a tune by maximising on the inherently good dynamic qualites of the box.
george
|
|
-risto-
|
8#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 19:07:56)
Reply to : georgegarside
Thanks George, I think I may have understood what you say about the use of bellows i.e. a longer lever with a shorter lever at the end for fine tuning?
I'm currently learning a jig set in D (The trip to Athlone-The Rambling Pitchfork) transcribed from Alan Kelly's playing (piano accordion) and can get up to 70% of his speed (with a though out fingering which seems to work). However, at that speed I find that the lowest notes (D - F#- G and A) in the latter tune are very difficult to play as they seem to require a really hard bellows treatment. This is what actually made me start thinking how much of this 'slowness' is actually due to the Hohner box itself. What say Ye?
There is a second problem which is the use the air switch (what is the proper name?). In the Hohner the switch is an on/off type and I can't get it work in tunes which gradually force the bellows to the other end. So I made a little modification so that the switch now acts somewhat proportionally. If I now press the switch the hole opens a little so that I can get a decent note while the bellows travel a loger distance, like leaking bellows. With this it seems that I can keep the bellows in a better position despite of the key of tunes. Is there anything similar in the more expensive boxes or do they all have the same type on/off switch as the Hohners? How are you supposed to use the standard on/off switch properly?
|
|
georgegarside
|
9#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 19:55:56)
Reply to : -risto-
Reply to : georgegarsideThanks George, I think I may have understood what you say about the use of bellows i.e. a longer leverwith ashorter lever at the end for fine tuning?I'm currently learning ajig set in D (The trip to Athlone-The Rambling Pitchfork) transcribed from Alan Kelly's playing (piano accordion)and can get up to 70% of his speed (with athough out fingeringwhich seems to work). However, at that speedI find that the lowest notes (D - F#- G and A) in the latter tune are very difficult toplay as they seem to requirea really hard bellows treatment.This is what actually mademestart thinking how much of this 'slowness' is actuallydue to theHohner box itself.What say Ye?There is a second problem which is theusethe air switch (what
My personal view - others may differ - is that the air button is best used as a simple on off switch. The use should be preplanned ( although with experience the best places to use it and the ability to avoid emergency or panic use become faiarly natural) DG boxes tend to always play towards closed & semitone boxes towards open nut of course this varies a bit with different tunes. So on a DG box the bellows are slowly heading towards closed but somewhere between where you are in the tune and the time the bellows will hit closed there may well be either a long 'pull' note or a group of shorter ' pull' notes' together. Either of these will give you the chance to ull the bellows well out towards an open position. The trick is to firmly & positively press the air button on these pull notes and to swiftly release it BEFORE the end of them ( otherwise if you keep it pressed when a push note occurs you will lose what you have just gained) Another useful technique is to anticipate a long series of 'push' notes or a single long push note and to gently work the bellows to a more open position in readiness. Its surpising how little use of the air button is needed on many tunes , alathugh there are of course exeptions! the biggest cause of vast air consumption is turgid bass playing as the big bass reeds are very greedy. Touch the bass buttons as if red hot and air consumption reduces greatly.
Then its back to using bellows pressure to control volume (dynamics) , not the air button or the amount a keyboard button is depressed. playing queitly also reduces air consumption ( if its got to be loud use an amplifier rather than pulling & tugging at the bellows & loosing all possibility of any finesse) Play most of the tune at about the middle volume of which your box is capable - then you have room to go both louder and quieter. Fast tunes are also easier to play at less than full volume!
george
|
|
C age ing
|
10#
|
Registered:20/08/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 20:06:53)
Because of the increased mass of the lower reeds, it will take more energy to start them resonating, keep them resonating and the greater damping effect of the extra mass will also stop the resonance rapidly.
Ever thought about positive and negative compressors with a rapid switching system?
Bill.
postscript:-Good on Marcus and the youngster's not so dusty, is he?
|
|
georgegarside
|
11#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 21:01:47)
 Reply to : C age ing
.Ever thought about positive and negative compressors with a rapid switching system?Bill.
? like arm, wrist & brain!
george
|
|
-risto-
|
12#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 23:36:47)
Reply to : C age ing
Because of the increased mass of the lower reeds, it will take more energy to start them resonating, keep them resonating and the greater damping effect of the extra mass will also stop the resonance rapidly.
Otherwise can concur but add extra mass to a beam and it will vibrate longer. Hand made reeds can be the answer as they probably have optimised the air gap between the tongue and base for quick response.
Ever thought about positive and negative compressors with a rapid switching system?
Oh yes, but the system still weights about a 100 kilos and needs to be carried in the back. They make a good A drone though, when pumping on 220 rev/sec. :-)
Bill.postscript:-Good on Marcus and the youngster's not so dusty, is he?
I thought it was Ford's development team who did it this time?
|
|
-risto-
|
13#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:05/08/2007 23:49:45)
Reply to : georgegarside
...The use should be preplanned ( although with experience the best places to use it and the ability to avoid )
Ok, this is then something which comes in due time thru practise. Thanks again George for your good information.
|
Theo Gibb
|
14#
|
Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
|
(Date Posted:07/08/2007 00:33:12)
Interesting airing of a topic that gets discussed quite often.
There are many factors that combine to give the impression of a box that is or is not "fast". Actually I think fast is not a good word for what we are talking about, and I prefer to think if responsiveness as the quality I'm looking for.
These factors divide into the quality of the three main parts of the box: bellows, key mechanism and reeds. If any one of them is not set up for optimum working then the other two will not show their best quality.
Taking each separately:
Bellows - need to be supple enough to open and close with minimum effort, and at the same time should be stable so that the folds don't rattle against each other which makes a distracting noise, and makes it hard top manage quick bellows reversals. Probably the worst bellows fault is when they have a strong tendency to close on their own. And it goes without saying that they should be airtight.
Reeds - the reed tongue must be the correct height above the reedplate. If you hear air before the note sounds this is most likely to be the problem. Its quite rare to find that this setting is optimal, even on new boxes. I've just had a nearly new Castagnari Mory in the workshop for just this adjustment. I very strongly believe that we should do like string players do and expect to get a good luthier to "set up" the instrument before it will play its best, and that applies to new/used, expensive or cheap boxes.
Reed quality - I've recently been measuring the clearance between reeds and their slots. Compared to top quality genuine hand made (a mano) reeds the modern hand made type (tipo a mano) have about double the clearance. Hohner slightly more than tipo a mano. As general rule the closer the clearance the more responsive the reed. Also critical is the thickness profile of the reed, and the widthways taper of the reed. Some are almost parallel, some quite strongly tapered. Then there is the reed mounting method - wax or screws, the reedblock design - type of timber, reed chamber size and shape, reedblock fixing method, all make some difference to the responsiveness, and to the sound character.
Key mechanism - spring pressure, rigidity of the lever, distance the button travels, how it stops (hard or soft landing) whether the key can move a bit sideways, and even the curvature of the button top all affect how the keys feel under your fingers and contribute to the impression of response.
And then as well as the physical properties of the instrument there are the preferences of the player to consider, some like softer or stiffer springs, longer or shorter travel, mellow or bright sound, ..
and I could go on!
Finally I reckon that a Hohner that is optimally set up is just as responsive as many of the other makes that cost 3 or 4 times the price to buy new. What you can't get from a Hohner though is the same quality of sound as you would get from say a Castagnari, or a Saltarelle.
|
|
georgegarside
|
15#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:07/08/2007 01:19:48)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
I would welcome a castgari with genuine hohner sound!!
george
|
|
Theo Gibb
|
16#
|
Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
|
(Date Posted:07/08/2007 12:52:15)
Why would you want that George? If you just want a wet tuned Castagnari that's just a natter of a couple of hours tuning work. What are the features of the Castagnari you would want to keep in this hybrid?
|
|
Jeff H
|
17#
|
Registered:15/12/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:09/09/2007 01:25:12)
So rather than fit good Italian reeds to a Hohner
fit some Hohner "T" reeds to a Castagnari
I think that will get you closer to the Hohner Sound than simply tuning wet
Not that I would do that....
|
|
Old Leaky
|
18#
|
Rank:none
Posts:65
Registered:09/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:12/09/2007 23:05:33)
Reply to : georgegarside
My personal view - others may differ - is that the air button is best used as a simple on off switch.
Er, is that not a piano accordion George? 
|
|
georgegarside
|
19#
|
Registered:19/06/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:13/09/2007 20:51:53)
Reply to : Old Leaky
Reply to : georgegarsideMy personal view - others may differ - is that the air button is best used as a simple on off switch.Er, is that not a piano accordion George?
I meant in the sense of press fully move bellows required amount release fully as oppossed to trying to press it part way in to let a bit of air in or out.
george
|
| Support us |
Just click the links below and your donations will make a difference here. |
|
|
|
Old Leaky
|
20#
|
Rank:none
Posts:65
Registered:09/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:15/09/2007 20:17:47)
Reply to : georgegarside
Reply to : Old LeakyReply to : georgegarsideMy personal view - others may differ - is that the air button is best used as a simple on off switch.Er, is that not a piano accordion George?I meant in the sense of press fully move bellows required amount release fully as oppossed to trying to press it part way in to let a bit of air in or out.george
Er, it was a wee joke George!
|
|
-risto-
|
21#
|
Rank:none
Posts:185
Registered:23/02/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
|
(Date Posted:17/09/2007 13:36:20)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
...distance the button travels...
I shortened the button travel something like a tenth of an inch by lifting the cover plate under the buttons. What a huge difference. What is the travel they use in Castagnaris and Saltarelles, anyone know?
EDIT: Anyone with Saltarelles and Castagnaris, could you please let me know even approximately what the button travel is in these boxes, I'd really appreciate this. Thanks.
|
|
|
