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andrew_w
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1#
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Rank:none
Posts:143
Registered:02/04/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/09/2007 23:34:56)
Heh, ever heard joke about getting two Jewish people in a room and getting three opinions? Well, I think that's about it for Melodeon players and microphones :-)
Personally, I use stand a mike/mikes. I don't move around much (though I always did when standing up to play for morris), and it makes it much easier when changing boxes which is a thing I do quite often.
Using a stand mike means I can easily move away from the amplification when I want to try something out, demonstrate a tune to the stand-in guitar player or whatever. I also remember seeing Jackie Daly making use of a stand mike for volume/dynamic effects...... well a man can dream!
A nice dynamic stand mike means no box mods, no batteries, no leads attaching yourself to the PA that you forget about, no noises as you change boxes or hideous noises and feedback when you place your box on the floor. Just point and play, leaving the rest up to the sound person.
What do I use? An AKG 1000s (on phantom power) and a couple of SM57s, mixed and matched as necessary; or whatever is attached to the sound system (and the sound person is attached to as well) when I arrive.
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rob2hook
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2#
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Rank:none
Posts:5
Registered:10/06/2007
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(Date Posted:26/09/2007 19:02:55)
If I remember - the Sennheiser kit is internal. The mics are therefore rather close to the reeds and can distort (piano accordion players tend to use much less punch and aggression in their playing). I like the AKG mini condenser mics like Squeezy or DTN uses, good sound although they do surround you with knitting. Anyway, ask Rees Wesson about them...
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vielleuse
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3#
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Rank:none
Posts:102
Registered:17/05/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:27/09/2007 17:03:06)
Reply to : rob2hook
If I remember - the Sennheiser kit is internal. The mics are therefore rather close to the reeds and can distort (piano accordion players tend to use much less punch and aggression in their playing). I like the AKG mini condenser mics like Squeezy or DTN uses, good sound although they do surround you with knitting. Anyway, ask Rees Wesson about them...
I've been wondering about these now actually.
Don't need fitting internally and don't involve sticking whopping strips of velcro on my lovely grill. Plus I'm getting the dual pre-amp anyway for my hurdy-gurdy.
PS, I just looked up the price of those AKG condenser mics, and the KK option would be decidedly more budget too!
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Theo Gibb
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4#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:27/09/2007 21:01:16)
Reply to : vielleuse
I've been wondering about these now actually.
Don't need fitting internally and don't involve sticking whopping strips of velcro on my lovely grill. Plus I'm getting the dual pre-amp anyway for my hurdy-gurdy.
PS, I just looked up the price of those AKG condenser mics, and the KK option would be decidedly more budget too!
Just a slight worry about that KK system. It appears to have jack or phono connectors to the preamp. I've had loads of bad experience with noisy connections using this type of connector on other makes of pickup.
And AKG may not be cheap but they make very good mics for the money. I'll economise on many things, but with mics get the very best you can possibly afford.
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andrew_w
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5#
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Rank:none
Posts:143
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(Date Posted:28/09/2007 00:22:36)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
Just a slight worry about that KK system. It appears to have jack or phono connectors to the preamp. I've had loads of bad experience with noisy connections using this type of connector on other makes of pickup.And AKG may not be cheap but they make very good mics for the money. I'll economise on many things, but with mics get the very best you can possibly afford.
..... and they say that those KK mics should be fitted 10 to 12 inches apart on the grill. Well, the grill on my 2 row's are only 8 1/2 inches long and my 1 row has no grill. The pokerwork is on loan so I couldn't measure it. I don't think I'll be alone with those problems in the melodeon world rather than the Piano Accordion one.
I've always thought that those AKG clip-ons look and sound good, but I know what disasters *do* happen when I'm physically attached to the PA.
-------------
added
heh, I've just deciphered the photograph on that page. So, it's not on the grill, it's above the grill. However, 10 to 12 inches is still too much and I wouldn't put those mounts onto my boxes.
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vielleuse
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6#
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Rank:none
Posts:102
Registered:17/05/2005
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(Date Posted:28/09/2007 13:58:48)
Reply to : andrew_w
..... and they say that those KK mics should be fitted 10 to 12 inches apart on the grill. Well, the grill on my 2 row's are only 8 1/2 inches long and my 1 row has no grill. The pokerwork is on loan so I couldn't measure it. I don't think I'll be alone with those problems in the melodeon world rather than the Piano Accordion one.
Yes, I need to have a general chat with KK about various things, and was going to ask them about that, and also about what sort of mikes they are, as they're not very forthcoming about that on the website. I'm not mad about those mounts either, but they're better than a strip mike on the grill.
Theo - what other sort of connectors are used?
NB that pre-amp they sell looks good to me because not only can you adjust the volume of each side, you can do a bit of EQing (although not as you go, you have to fiddle with a screwdriver in advance). It's looking as though I need to get one of these for the gurdy or have one made much more expensively and without the EQ or volume control. (Unless someone knows of another dual pre-amp).
I don't think I can afford two AKG condensor mikes (which exact ones are they?) and whatever other bits and bobs, plus an entire amplification system for the hurdy-gurdy. Just having a proper setup at all is a huge advance for me, and then if I ever start getting paid more than my bus fare home for gigs (ha) I can justify upgrading.
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Theo Gibb
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7#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:28/09/2007 20:07:41)
Reply to : vielleuse
Theo - what other sort of connectors are used?
The three pin connectors used on stand mics usually known as XLR or canon are the best ones. If you can find a suitable dynamic clip on mic then you don't even need a preamp, and therefore you can't be left soundless by batteries running out. There are some nice clip on mics of that type, designed for use with drums, which are pretty robust. I use one on the melody side of my box and a stand mic for the left.
Having eq on a preamp that needs a screwdriver to operate sounds to me like a waste of time. When you are on stage playing your instrument you are not hearing the same sound that the audience hears so anything you might do could have unknown effects for the audience. EQ should be left to your sound person.
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iand
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8#
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Rank:none
Posts:7
Registered:28/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:29/09/2007 17:11:47)
The systems like the KK one with two spaced right-hand mikes seem like a good idea at first to give roughly equal volume for all the keys.
Unfortunately they can also sound iffy because of cancellation between the two mics, especially for keys near the middle. For example, if a key is 3" closer to one mic than the other this will put notches in the frequency response at about 2kHz, 6kHz, 10kHz (where the spacing difference is (n+1/2) wavelengths. This uneven frequency response gives a "hollow" sound on some notes, because it can cancel out a lot of the harmonics which a reed generates.
A better solution which doesn't have this problem is a single longer gooseneck using a directional capsule (cardioid or hypercardioid), positioned so the capsule is maybe 6" away from (depends on size of box) and level with the (physical) top of the grill, but pointing at the (physical) bottom of the grill. The closer distance to the top notes (lowest pitch) is compensated for by the lower off-axis sensitivity of the microphone.
Ian
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rob2hook
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9#
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Rank:none
Posts:5
Registered:10/06/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:30/09/2007 17:38:27)
OK, I was lazy in not specifying the AKG kit. It consists of two C416L mics (one for bass & one for treble) ?0ish each. These are supplied with a choice of how to attach the mount to the box. Orientation of the gooseneck is a matter of personal choice. I chose to put the mount on the bottom of the box for aesthetic reasons - but now I can't put the box down with the mics attached! The mics have rather fine leads terminated in mini XLR connectors.
To power the mics and mix their output there is a battery box B29L ?0ish which provides the phantom power to the mics. Connection to the sound desk is by a standard (XLR-XLR) microphone lead.
On the whole the sound is pretty good, but of course a really expensive condenser mic on a stand is better!
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vielleuse
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10#
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Rank:none
Posts:102
Registered:17/05/2005
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 00:58:57)
Reply to : rob2hook
OK, I was lazy in not specifying the AKG kit. It consists of two C416L mics (one for bass & one for treble) ?0ish each. These are supplied with a choice of how to attach the mount to the box. Orientation of the gooseneck is a matter of personal choice. I chose to put the mount on the bottom of the box for aesthetic reasons - but now I can't put the box down with the mics attached! The mics have rather fine leads terminated in mini XLR connectors.To power the mics and mix their output there is a battery box B29L ?0ish which provides the phantom power to the mics. Connection to the sound desk is by a standard (XLR-XLR) microphone lead.On the whole the sound is pretty good, but of course a really expensive condenser mic on a stand is better!
OK that's a lot less financially painful than the ones I thought you were talking about, I'll put those on the shortlist.
I'm dubious about using stand mikes, as I've had experiences of not getting the best of the bass side because it moves too far away, and (with the hurdy-gurdy) of the mike feeding back so badly when playing with a loud band that the engineer couldn't turn me up enough to be audible. I actually don't play the melodeon in public as much as I otherwise might because I don't have confidence that things like this won't happen as things stand. I'm not necessarily playing quiet folk nights where basically people are listening, accompanied by maybe a mandolin and a fiddle - I'm often playing noisy venues with electric guitars, laptops and the kitchen sink.
As regards EQing your own sound, I have been (very reliably) advised to get a mixer for my hurdy-gurdy pickups in fact, but there you go, different instrument. In any case, I think the idea is not to EQ on stage as you go, but to preset a mix to give the engineer.
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Theo Gibb
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11#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 11:05:29)
Reply to : vielleuse
I'm often playing noisy venues with electric guitars, laptops and the kitchen sink.
In that case you probably aren't too worried about the last word in faithful rendition of the sound quality of your box! That means you could consider cheaper solutions, but I would still be wanting to avoid anything that uses phono connectors. I don't know anything about your sound engineer, but in my limited experience the ones who mostly work with electric instruments don't often have much experience in managing acoustic instruments and the problems of feedback on a loud stage. If you use a clip on mic on the treble end look for one with a Hypercardiod pickup pattern mounted like 'iand' described, and for the bass end a pzm mounted under the left side cover.
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vielleuse
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12#
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Rank:none
Posts:102
Registered:17/05/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 18:52:52)
My sound engineer - I wish!!! With the type of gigs I mostly play, you get whatever sound engineer the venue provides, who tends to be either enthusiastic but doesn't have a clue, or is half deaf and can't be arsed any more. Either way they've never heard a melodeon or a hurdy-gurdy and don't have the faintest what to do with anything that isn't an electric guitar.
I do care about sound quality though, because some of the time I'm playing with bands, some of the time with my duo which is a lot sparser and more about sounding nice.
I do really need specific recommendations though, because I'm not technically knowledgeable and it just gets confusing.
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iand
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13#
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Rank:none
Posts:7
Registered:28/06/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/10/2007 00:43:55)
I use a decent stand mic for the treble end -- which means you get even pickup (placed about a foot away) and can move on and off the mic if required -- and a short gooseneck mic (clipped onto the bass end strap) for the bass end -- which means you don't get the problem with varying volume as the bellows move in and out. I never have any feedback problems with this setup, even with the box loud in the foldback.
This also means no mounts or clamps need adding onto the box, which is great if you play more than one instrument (I use 3 different melodeons on stage).
Also having 2 separate channels for the two ends helps the sound a lot on the desk, the problem with the AKG mics is they're both mixed into one channel. It's common to need different EQ for the two ends on a melodeon, and often different and varying volumes -- if you want to turn up the box in a particular tune you usually only want to do this to the treble end, not the bass end.
Ian
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andrew_w
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14#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:03/10/2007 17:50:56)
Eeeh, a few interesting comments here. Again, I can only speak from personal experience and whatever prejudices that have been passed on to me.
Onstage you will *never* get a faithfull rendition of what your instrument sounds like (unless you use no PA at all), it's all a matter of compromise. After a certain point more expensive microphones will make no real difference. The microphone is a tiny part in the sound chain, so much depends upon say, the quality of the amplifier and speakers, and of course the competence of the person in charge of it all.
Onstage noise really shouldn't be a problem. Proof? In one band that I play with I have the following around me. A full drum kit a couple feet away behind and to my right. A bass player and cab directly behind me. An electric fiddle to my right, with onstage amp and electric guitar and cabs the other side of fiddle player. Then there's the fold-back, and the noise on stage can be stupendous. However, with this band I have *never* had a problem with feedback. What I use is the commonly available AKG C1000S (the old black model, not the newer silver one) which is cardidoid, not even hypercardidoid.
What is more to the point I suppose is that we have the luxury of a superb real sound engineer (he works for the BBC).
The first and most important criteria in a microphone for me has always been reliability. Get an SM57, throw it at the wall, jump on it and then bounce the bass cab on it, and it'll still work. There's one big reason that the likes of Shure and AKG sell a lot of microphones to professionals.
Trying to pre-EQ the signal that you send to the sound desk I think would be a complete waste of time. Different venues will have different sound qualities. Qualities that will even change over the course of an evening with numbers of people, temperature and humidity.
Sound engineers like good strong signals that the musicians don't muck around with. You're on the stage and quite honestly have no real idea what the sound up front is like. Let them do their job, there is really nothing you can do about it other than unplugging the microphone.
I suppose that the caveat here is that I mostly work with a sound engineer, many people don't and mix their own sound.
I feel your pain about the random idiots you can find around some sound desks. Recently I was playing at a local venue where the desk/lead/something had a problem with the mandolin player's plug-in system. What he has is like what a lot of guitar players have, where a lead is plugged straight into the end of the instrument. Anyway, it wasn't working, so we suggested that he play directly into a stand condenser microphone.
Great, it worked, everyone was happy. We got going, but the "sound engineer" soon started scurrying around. Then, in the middle of a song, he started sticking a lead into the mandolin as it was being played. Result, *NOISE*. Growl, hum, screech, feedback, clunking noises! The mandolin player eventually pulled out the lead, whereupon the "sound engineer" who had by then turned off the stand microphone, scratched his about why it wasn't working and came along and plugged the lead back into the mandolin........ homicide seemed a pretty good option at that point.
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squeezy
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15#
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Rank:none
Posts:62
Registered:23/12/2002
Time spent: 7887 hours
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(Date Posted:14/10/2007 03:32:12)
I would love to recommend the AKG 419 or 416 mics I use on my boxes as they give a lovely true sound with a great bass response for the left hand.
Unfortunately AKG have (in their infinite wisdom) discontinued the model for their upgraded model the 519 or 516. These unfortunately are even more flimsy and now don't have the important bass response down to 20Hz - preferring now to start at 60Hz - which makes the nice sub bass undertones you get from a melodeon impossible to boost.
I don't know where to go from here myself. The old ones broke on a regular basis and repairs are not easy.
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