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mike delta
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1#
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Registered:13/10/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2006 12:45:47)
Hi All,
I have a couple of questions that I hope some of you may be able to help with.
My D/G box is "wet" tuned (about 20 cents difference between one reed and its partner). I have considered having it "dry" tuned but I'm not sure by how much. I do want a slight distinction between two reeds but probably about 5 cents difference. To gain just a very very slight beating between the reeds would you consider 5 cents too much? Or should I opt for 0 cents as I have been told that if 0 cents is opted for it is unlikely that the voices would be lost and a slight beat would still be heard.
Is it very expensive to have the "wetness" taken out?
My ideal of course would be for a box that has its reeds (2 voice model) octave tuned (and dry) but I am assuming that the cost of conversion would not be cost effective and it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a new box. Am I correct in this assumption.
Thanks in advance.
Mike.
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Theo Gibb
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2#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain 
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2006 14:00:40)
Mike
In answer to your questions:
When deciding how much tremolo you would like you may find it more useful to think in terms of beat rate (beats per minute) of the tremolo, rather than cents. There are a couple of reasons behind this suggestion. First its the beat rate that your ears actually hear, not a number of cents. Second, the difference in cents required to produce a particular beat rate is not a constant, it varies as you go up and down the scale of notes. Specifically for a given beat rate the difference in cents halves each octave up the scale. To add to the complication some instruments are tuned to a constant beat rate, some to a constant difference in cents, and yet others are intermediate between the two.
Probably the best way to decide is to find an instrument that has the amount of tremolo you like, and send a recording of it to your tuner. I've done exactly that for many of my customers.
The expense depend on how many buttons, and how many reeds per button. It also depends on how accurately the reeds are tuned to start with. Dry, and near dry tunings require much more accurate tuning of each individual reed. So in theory the set of reeds that are at concert pitch should not need any attention, but in practice the tuning of these reeds may need attention too. As a rough guide a two row, two voice instrument would probably cost in the region of ?0 to ?0 to tune from typical wet to almost dry.
If you have reeds tuned to 0 cents difference you will not hear any beat at all. If you do hear a beat they have not been tuned to exactly the same note. Eliminating beats is the way to achieve 0 cents difference, it can't be done reliably with a tuning meter.
You are correct in assuming that octave tuning would be more expensive. It would require one new set of reeds, and it would also need modified reedblocks to accommodate the lower, and larger reeds.
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mike delta
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3#
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Registered:13/10/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2006 16:12:22)
Theo,
Thanks for that very informative answer. It makes things much clearer. However, it is not something I would have attempted to do myself so your "estimated" costings for what I would require is a good starting point.
I may find it a little difficult to obtain a recording of the tuning I would require unless of course I revert to a commercial recording of a particular tuning I like the sound of. Having said that I will badger a couple of box players I know and listen to how they have their boxes set up.
Your opinion on costs et cetera for "octave" tuning is as I expected really. I suppose it all boils down to the quality of ones instrument. The D/G box I have (Excelsior) although sounding just fine to me; was bought "used" and even though it is in near perfect condition I am not sure how it rates compared to the likes of more well known makes such as Castagnari & Salterelle. Probably nowhere near in terms of quality but then again I'm happy with it except for the "wet" tuning of course. Thanks once again.
Mike.
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Theo Gibb
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4#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:20/10/2006 19:04:12)
Reply to : mike delta
The D/G box I have (Excelsior) although sounding just fine to me; was bought "used" and even though it is in near perfect condition I am not sure how it rates compared to the likes of more well known makes such as Castagnari & Salterelle. Probably nowhere near in terms of quality but then again I'm happy with it except for the "wet" tuning of course. Thanks once again.
Mike
Excelsior are better know for their piano accordions, which have a very high reputation for quality. I had a tour of their factory a couple of years ago. At that time they claimed to be the last Italian manufacturer to actually manufacture the whole instrument on one site, apart from bellows and reeds. I should have thought they are capable of at least equalling the quality of Saltarelle.
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frank Lee
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5#
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Rank:none
Posts:26
Registered:12/10/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:23/10/2006 20:26:31)
Mike.
Perhaps Theo will have some comments to make about this. I had my Hohner Corona IIIR converted from wet to dry; the tuner did exactly what I asked, and the box sounded fine. BUT - it was a big mistake for me, as it appeared to have lost a good percentage of it's volume, and I needed it for Morris as well as other things. I should have known I suppose. If you've ever removed the pea from a pea whistle, you'll know what happens to it's volume. I presume the same thing applies to wet v dry tuning, at least to some extent?
Frank
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Triskel
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6#
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Rank:none
Posts:329
Registered:19/12/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:23/10/2006 20:50:51)
Reply to : frank Lee
I had my Hohner Corona IIIR converted from wet to dry; the tuner did exactly what I asked, and the box sounded fine. BUT - it was a big mistake for me, as it appeared to have lost a good percentage of it's volume, and I needed it for Morris as well as other things.
Frank,
Yes, you will aways lose volume with dry tuning, or gain it as you add more tremolo. Old accordions were tuned so wet in order to make themselves heard in noisy dance halls, before the days of amplification. Dry tuning has only become popular since people started to play amplified.
My Baldoni, Bartoli was made to be played in an Irish dance hall in New York, back in the 1930s, with the four middle reeds tuned -16 / 0 / +16 / +24, and I've kept it in that tuning which sounds remarkably homogenous, and loud! 
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mike delta
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7#
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Registered:13/10/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:24/10/2006 02:09:36)
Reply to : Triskel
Reply to : frank LeeI had my Hohner Corona IIIR converted from wet to dry; the tuner did exactly what I asked, and the box sounded fine. BUT - it was a big mistake for me, as it appeared to have lost a good percentage of it's volume...
Hi All,
Interesting to know that a trade off takes place if the tremelo is taken out. I could be way off the mark here but can reeds be adjusted for brightness/volume to compensate for any perceived volume loss? Or is this not possible?
I heard a one voiced box only last week, a Castagnari "Lilly" that would take take yer hat off at a fifty metre range. Seriously though, the "Lilly" was a very loud instrument out of all proportion to its physical size. Or maybe these are a special type of reed. Maybe someone would care to enlighten me as my Melodeon/reed knowledge is very limited.
Thanks, Mike
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Triskel
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8#
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Rank:none
Posts:329
Registered:19/12/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:24/10/2006 04:45:15)
Reply to : mike delta
Interesting to know that a trade off takes place if the tremelo is taken out.
Like I said, it's what the tremolo is for.
I could be way off the mark here but can reeds be adjusted for brightness/volume to compensate for any perceived volume loss?
No.
I heard a one voiced box only last week, a Castagnari "Lilly" that would take take yer hat off at a fifty metre range. Seriously though, the "Lilly" was a very loud instrument out of all proportion to its physical size. Or maybe these are a special type of reed.
The Lilly uses good quality "tipo a mano" reeds (like most Castagnaris), but it is actually so loud because it is so small, making it easy to apply a lot of pressure to them. But the downside is that it then becomes very easy to break reeds, which then puts the instrument out of action as there's only one per note. (It's why Sharon Shannon stopped playing the Lilly that I sold her!)
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Theo Gibb
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9#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:24/10/2006 12:46:49)
Reply to : Triskel
The Lilly uses good quality "tipo a mano" reeds (like most Castagnaris), but it is actually so loud because it is so small, making it easy to apply a lot of pressure to them.
And the reeds are mounted flat, rather than on a reedblock. I believe this also contributes extra volume.
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Triskel
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10#
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Rank:none
Posts:329
Registered:19/12/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:24/10/2006 16:26:39)
Reply to : Theo Gibb
And the reeds are mounted flat, rather than on a reedblock. I believe this also contributes extra volume.
Agreed Theo, I forgot to mention that! 
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mike delta
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11#
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Registered:13/10/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:26/10/2006 03:49:15)
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your replies. The combined knowledge you guys have is very useful to someone such as myself who has only a very limited knowledge of "the box".
Theo, in my original posting I asked about taking the wetness out of my tuning on the "Excelsior D/G and the monetary implications et cetera. As it happens I like the tremelo "on some tunes" but not on others. I am wondering if a repairer such as yourself could fit a stop (on a two voice D/G) to take out one of the reed banks so that the option is left for me to play either tremelo tuning or single reed. Is this possible and if it is are we talking "big bucks". I'm wondering that if it is possible for you to fit a stop I can avoid the expence of a new box. Especially as I quite like the Excelsior including the tremelo (on occasions).
Best wishes,
Mike Delta.
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Theo Gibb
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12#
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Rank:none
Posts:758
From: Great_britain
Registered:30/06/2004
Time spent: 4850 hours
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(Date Posted:26/10/2006 13:19:25)
Reply to : mike delta
I am wondering if a repairer such as yourself could fit a stop (on a two voice D/G) to take out one of the reed banks so that the option is left for me to play either tremelo tuning or single reed. Is this possible and if it is are we talking "big bucks". I'm wondering that if it is possible for you to fit a stop I can avoid the expence of a new box. Especially as I quite like the Excelsior including the tremelo (on occasions).
Mike
In theory it is possible to fit stops to an existing box, but it really is messing with the heart of the instrument, and it is not something I would recommend on a box where you really like the sound.
What you might like to consider is just to reduce the tremolo a bit so you have some kind of acceptable compromise tuning.
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mistermacky
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13#
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Rank:none
Posts:50
Registered:30/12/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:19/06/2007 16:36:35)
I've just tuned two 'wet' boxes drier, a Delicia c/f and Hohner b/c, and I'm pleased with the result, so I thought I'd add my thoughts to this string.
Firstly, I agree with Theo, the beat rate is the thing to choose, rather than the number of cents difference. If you choose a fixed cent difference, you'll end up with no beat on the lowest notes, and fast beat on the highest. So unless that's what you want, choose a beat rate you like and ask for that.
If you want to choose a beat rate, look at a clock with a second hand, and count the seconds out. ie, 123, 123, 123, etc, to get an idea of what 3 beats per second will sound like. You can do the same for 2 per second, or 4 or 5. It works well.
If you do that test with a box you like the sound of, you should end up with somthing that suits you.
I haven't detected any loss of volume at all, on either box, so maybe it only happens if you go completely dry. I aimed at about 3 beats per second, which matches a Saltarelle Bouebe that I like the sound of fairly well.
There's a lot of work involved, and the cost Theo quotes sounds pretty reasonable to me, especially if the box could do with a tune anyway. I didn't think mine were too bad, but they both sound much sweeter now.
Hope this helps!
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