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NorthernMelodeon
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1#
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 07:03:37)
Reply to : andrewmuir
My question to anyone who has tried one is this. Is the light weight confined to the keyboard side and therefore is the bass side which is where the weight matters is it just as heavy as what I have already got.
The Lilly is TINY! I think it's a nice instrument as a second instrument for fun and travel, and for it's very particular sound, but I would not recommend it as your "main" box -- even if your prefered sound is a two-voice dry sound, you will find that the Lilly's feel and sound is still different than that. You should see whether you can try one out when you travel to England -- someone is bound to have one.
The bass side is most certainly lighter than the Sander, and lighter than most other button accordions' bass sides, except for a very few other "miniature" boxes. I would imagine that the Loffet Touptit is comparable.
That said, the Sander's left side should not really seem so heavy to you. There are other factors that could be affecting speed, some are mechanical and technical (reed setting. reed quality, bellows quality) and some might relate to your own technique (hand position, way of using straps, bellows control, use of air button). I even think that some weight is advantageous, to a certain point.
The Sander is a "full" sized Castagnari but by no means a "heavy" accordion. It is bulkier to travel with a full size instrument compared to a Lilly, like you say.
Good luck,
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Steve_freereeder
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2#
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 11:56:02)
Reply to : andrewmuir
I presently play a Castagnari Sanders (least I think that? what it is) which I bought because I liked the idea of the option of a lower register, but now I hardly ever use it ' the register that is. It? quite bulky and not travel friendly and heavy to boot. I?e read about the Lily which since it is single reed it is also light weight. My question to anyone who has tried one is this. Is the light weight confined to the keyboard side and therefore is the bass side which is where the weight matters is it just as heavy as what I have already got. I know Rees has one but I don? think I can make Sidmouth this year so before I invest I would like some refeences.Andrew
As Andy (Northern Melodeon) has said, the Lily is a small melodeon amd is very light. However, with its hand-made reeds, it has a very bright strong sound. I know several morris musicians who use a Lily and there is never any trouble hearing their melodeons above the sometimes noisy atmospherics of an outdoor morris display. The Lily is also capable of quiet delicate music too. But with its small bellows capacity, there can be a tendency to run out of air or bellows stretch in long sustained passages.
You might want to consider a Tommy in preference to a Lily. I played a Tommy for years before changing to a Sander special (hand-made reeds) as my 'outdoor box'. The Tommy is slightly larger and heavier than the Lily, but but significantly smaller and lighter than the Sander. The LH end of the Tommy (as it has an economical bass/chords reed layout) is quite light and as a result, easy to move around and work the bellows very quickly. The Tommy also has that 3rd (low) voice in the RH, which I think is always a useful option to have. You can play many tunes in the upper octave of the keyboard but with the 3rd voice sounding, so the overall pitch of the tune is as if you were playing in the 'normal', lower octave of the keyboard (cf. Andy Cutting). Overall, I think the Tommy is a great box - one of Castagnari's best.
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andrewmuir
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3#
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 14:27:24)
Thanks Steve and Andy for your helpful comments. My best bet clearly is to tyr out the two. As to technique I use two straps and play sitting down and I attempt to use the weight of the base box to help with the draw and to a lesser xtent with the push. My only difficulty is a quick in'n'out which occasionally is called for - but I'm practising to get that a bit quicker.
Andrew
ex Sheffield man but now a gringo
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Steve_freereeder
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 15:34:19)
Reply to : andrewmuir
Thanks Steve and Andy for your helpful comments. My best bet clearly is to tyr out the two. As to technique I use two straps and play sitting down and I attempt to use the weight of the base box to help with the draw and to a lesser xtent with the push. My only difficulty is a quick in'n'out which occasionally is called for - but I'm practising to get that a bit quicker.Andrewex Sheffield man but now a gringo
Another member of the Sheffield Melodeon Players Secret Clan - Hooray!
It sounds by the occasional "quick in'n'out" very much like you tend to play in cross-row style a lot of the time, rather than the "in-and-out, up-and-down-the-rows" technique that many morris (and other dance) players use. Do you play a D/G or G/C box, or B/C or C/C-sharp Irish system?
Cheers
Steve
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Pushpull
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5#
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 19:18:44)
Reply to : Steve_freereeder
AsYou might want to consider a Tommy in preference to a Lily.
Another thumbs up here for the Tommy. A great box, I love mine to bits. Having said that, a Lilly is very high on my list of must haves. Amazingly big sound for a tiny one voice box and a delight to play. I'm rather hoping my missus will weaken before me and go out and buy one.
Roy.
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andrewmuir
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6#
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(Date Posted:19/07/2005 22:43:03)
I
In answer to your question, Steve,I try to avoid too much in and out for the rather slicker up and down - mainly because that's what I learned from Mally. My Sanders is a D!G and that fits most Morris Dancing. I got hooked on Morris Dancing when passing through Ely one year and found the City full of people in strange garb frequenting all the pubs and generally having a good time. I was so fascinated that i purchased a Delicia the next year. I then visited Sidmouth which is whee I found my Sanders. No doubt this Xmas when I will be in Wimbledon I'll get to see the Greensleaves (who are older than me by one year) do their stuff in the Rose and Crown.
Andrew
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SmoilerRedbox
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7#
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 02:01:02)
Reply to : NorthernMelodeon
I would imagine the Loffet Touptit is comparable...
Well, to satisfy my idle curiosity, I have just stuck both my Lily and Touptit on my bathroom scales (which NEVER lie...LOL) - the Lily comes out at around 1kg, and the Touptit at 1.5kg! ('give or take' I suspect, but the comparison is valid). A bit surprising really as, although the dimensions of the Touptit are larger, it has always FELT lighter. Mind you, it does have 2 rather smart padded straps on, compared to one rather feeble single strand of leather on the Lily. But, although both are 1-voice D/G they are very different boxes - I prefer the treble side of the Loffet, but the bass of the Castagnari. The action is quite different, too. The Loffet comes in a more user-friendly, semi-rigid nylon, fur-lined and really rather-plush 'ruck-sack' rather than a hard case
Diane (also Sheffield!)
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SmoilerRedbox
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8#
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 02:15:52)
Reply to : andrewmuir
I try to avoid too much in and out for the rather slicker up and down - mainly because that's what I learned from Mally. My Sanders is a D!G and that fits most Morris Dancing. I got hooked on Morris Dancing
You have indeed learnt from someone who, although playing a D/G, is far more of an Irish style player, and who plays more Irish music, than English. If your preference is for English dance music such as Morris then I would feel that you need to utilise those 'ins and outs' to enhance the rhythmic quality of the music and to provide 'lift'.
Another instrument to consider (especially if you like slick action), comparable in size to a Tommy (but considerably lighter in price, at around ?,250 - although doesn't have stop for thirds) - is the Beltuna Sara, stocked by Hobgoblin. I think this is a relative newcomer to the 'scene' but has lovely, very fast action, and nice tone.
Diane
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SmoilerRedbox
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9#
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 02:19:30)
Reply to : Andrewmuir
Another instrument to consider (especially if you like slick action), comparable in size to a Tommy (but considerably lighter in price, at around ?,250 - although doesn't have stop for third
Whoops...correction! just remembered, yes it does have bass end stop for 3rds - if I remember correctly, a rather strange looking affair - turned wood, same shape as the feet.
Diane
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NorthernMelodeon
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 02:36:47)
Reply to : SmoilerRedbox
Another instrument to consider (especially if you like slick action), comparable in size to a Tommy (but considerably lighter in price, at around ?,250 - although doesn't have stop for thirdWhoops...correction! just remembered, yes it does have bass end stop for 3rds - if I remember correctly, a rather strange looking affair - turned wood, same shape as the feet.Diane
?,250 seems a bit on the steep side for a 2-voice instrument (the Tommy is 3-voice). Castiglione in the U.S. will sell them for around $1550, which is considerably less. I wonder what the French Beltuna dealers are charging? Gilles Briselance (sp?) is supposed to be one of their dealers there.
I'd love to try one of those Beltunas.
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andrewmuir
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 04:38:36)
Hi Diane
It never occurred to me that Mally could be Irish and I have to say I love their county kerry music. And I take your point that to get a good rythm going the in and out technique must help and I'm practising. But when you have four or more note sequence the move between the two keys makes life simpler and keeps the pace going. I'll mix it more in future,
Sounds interesting the Beltuna although what I have heard in recordings of French melodeons bears littel resemblance to English Folk. Much more Gallic? I'll go to Crawley and check it out when I arrive next week.
Sorry about the excessive space I used in the last posting. I'm not sure what happened but obviously I don't use the preview button.
Cheers
Andrew
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andrewmuir
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 04:58:08)
A quick check on Google shows the megastore selling the Lily at 741 pounds and the Beltuna at 971.
Andrew
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Triskel
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 05:39:16)
Reply to : SmoilerRedbox
... to satisfy my idle curiosity, I have just stuck both my Lily and Touptit on my bathroom scales (which NEVER lie...LOL) - the Lily comes out at around 1kg, and the Touptit at 1.5kg! ('give or take' I suspect, but the comparison is valid).
Hi Diane,
Time for a lie-detector test on those bathroom scales ?
At least, accordin' to their makers the Lilly weighs in at 1.8kg, and the Touptit at 2kg.
Cheers,
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Pushpull
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14#
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 14:09:43)
Reply to : andrewmuir
Hi DianeIt never occurred to me that Mally could be Irish
No, he is English but does seem to favour cross row playing to smooth the bellows a bit. Now if as you previously hinted you want to play like JK, then do a bit more in and out to get a lift into rhythm. I dare say Mr Garside may be along shortly to say if you want to play like JK, get a B/C/C# 3 row ;-)
By the way, if you know of Mally and you like Morris and you're looking for collections of box music. I suppose you have the Mally Morris books?
Roy.
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Val Huzzard
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15#
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(Date Posted:20/07/2005 15:57:49)
I have never had a Lilly, and always thought there would be a problem with losing air through the little bellows too fast. However, I bought one for my daughter 2 years ago as she loved the small size and portabilty. It was a wise move as her playing is now astounding.
As already pointed out, they are very bright loud boxes with a unique sound. Lucy plays a lot of stuff across the rows rather than up and down, and has no trouble with losing air. The single reeds on the treble side probably help with this.
I actually prefer the sound of the Lilly to the Tommy, and they are considerably cheaper,but it is all personal choice really.
Val
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Triskel
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16#
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 02:22:43)
Reply to : Val Huzzard
I actually prefer the sound of the Lilly to the Tommy, and they are considerably cheaper,but it is all personal choice really.
Indeed it is. I sold Sharon Shannon her first two Castagnaris, a Lilly and a Tommy. She loved the Tommy, and has bought several more, but very quickly got rid of the Lilly. I think she was breaking too many reeds for one thing, always a danger if you play at all hard on a single reed.
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andrewmuir
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17#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 04:48:22)
"By the way, if you know of Mally and you like Morris and you're looking for collections of box music. I suppose you have the Mally Morris books?"
Hi Roy
You can see that I haven't yet learned how to manage all the mechanics of this forum. I do have three of Mally's books plus recordings - two from the Cotswolds and one Northern. His playing is unbeleivably consistent and he never loses a beat. Although I can read music I always have to make a written transcription to make sure that I'm playing a particular note on the right row to achieve the right base narmony. Pity that's not done by the publisher but I guess it probably comes naturally to most of you by now.The fingering is then a matter of trial and error to suit my abilities.
Andrew
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Dazbo
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18#
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Registered:08/08/2004
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 11:53:59)
Andrew,
I learnt solely from Mally's books for the first couple of years (and I don't have the excuse of living 1000's of miles from other melodeon players - but that's another story). Although I think I got a good grounding in the instrument from him I've come to the conclusion that, for English style playing, he lead me to cross the rows too much. Not only does this make it harder to get the lift into the music is also means that you have to be very careful when cross rowing that in a fast run the individual notes remain individual and don't run into each other (a fault I still struggle to overcome).
I think, speaking to other players, the third 'problem' I ended up with learning from the Mally books was to play the basses he'd specified (and consequently from other music books too). It is best to remember that these basses are a guide and you can alter or invent your own basses*. This can be done to for a number of reasons: to make the tune easier to play; fit it with what others play or because you think it sounds better. The notated music is only a guide and should be used as such and not slavishly followed as this will kill the musicallity of the piece quicker than anything.
Darren
* I think a consequence of this is in trying to slavishly follow the basses you may be altering the tune rather than playing the basses to match the tune. I'm sure you've noticed by now that sometimes Mally's basses cannot be played on an 8 bass standard two row (eg a G bass with an E).
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Fee
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19#
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Registered:28/03/2004
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 12:30:03)
Although I think I got a good grounding in the instrument from him I've come to the conclusion that, for English style playing, he lead me to cross the rows too much
Darren, it's interesting you say that, Squeezy said a good thing to think about is that if the tune's in G, for example, then you should try to play it mostly on that row rather than crossing the rows, and then you don't lose the 'melodeony' sound and lift (as Diane said) in the tunes. I was starting to make it sound like a piano accordian, apparantly, how alarming  !. Though I guess there's sometimes a need for a bit of row crossing to fit the basses to things, for example.
I ended up with learning from the Mally books was to play the basses he'd specified (and consequently from other music books too). It is best to remember that these basses are a guide and you can alter or invent your own basses*
All my morris music was written down for me with no basses, so I had to work them out myself (though I've done nothing complicated...am only just tentatively moving into that now!). But I find if I go back to the Dave Townsend books of music I can't help myself from slavishly following what's written down bass wise. It's that 'classical' music education coming back to bite us again I fear!
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Dazbo
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20#
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Registered:08/08/2004
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 13:26:20)
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Fee
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21#
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Registered:28/03/2004
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 14:02:44)
Reply to : Dazbo
Reply to : FeeI was starting to make it sound like a piano accordianOHMYGODOkay! I think we're not too late, there is still a chance we can save her!Sit down in a darkened room, mix yourself a cocktail of half a pint of Metaxa, half a pint of diet coke and half a pint of fresh orange juice** and drink it;put Tunes on the CD player and repeat the following mantra "I must not cross-row, I must not cross-row" until the CD has finished. Pick up your melodeon, strap it on and play Highland Mary, non stop for 15 minu
Hee!. Dr. Darren, Your concern is touching. ..I shall try the treatment tonight, I drink coke + orange anyway, it's lovely, the addition of brandy can only be an improvement  !.....
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Jo Ellis Boyfriend
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22#
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 14:35:46)
Reply to : Fee
I agree with Darren. The melodeon will sound more melodeonistic (just another way of writing the word melodeon that I thought of) if you DON'T croos the rows. But I too will cross the rows for waltzes and airs to get that smooth sound, and to use the bass as much as I can.
I originally learnt from Mally's book two. Thing is, I was in a session with him last year, playing in C on a D/G box, and he came over and asked me how I did it, and said that he just plays a C/F box when he wants to play in C. I was really impressed that I taught Mally something when his book taught me!
The lilly and Tommy are both great boxes, but I prefer the tommy. More expensive, but you pays your money, you takes your choice.......................................
Cheers
Pip Ives
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Dazbo
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23#
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Registered:08/08/2004
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 14:43:07)
Reply to : Fee
I drink coke + orange anyway, it's lovely, the addition of brandy can only be an improvement
You're the first person I've ever heard of (who wasn't German) that drinks coke and orange. Orange Fanta and coke is nice (the original) but fresh orange is better I think.
Darren
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Triskel
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24#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 15:55:47)
Reply to : Pip Ives
... I was in a session with him last year, playing in C on a D/G box, and he came over and asked me how I did it, and said that he just plays a C/F box when he wants to play in C.
I guess he doesn't play a single-row melodeon then ? You must have been using the same "on the draw" fingering, on the G row, that I would use to play in G on my 4-stop D ? (And you could play in D "on the draw" using my A fingering.)
So, if you really want to confuse people, you can play "on the draw" in G on the D row, and in D on the G row !
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NorthernMelodeon
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25#
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(Date Posted:21/07/2005 16:26:05)
Reply to : Stephen Chambers
Reply to : Pip Ives... I was in a session with him last year, playing in C on a D/G box, and he came over and asked me how I did it, and said that he just plays a C/F box when he wants to play in C.I guess hedoesn't play a single-row melodeon then ? Youmust have been using the same "on the draw" fingering, on the G row, that I would use to play in G on my 4-stop D ? (And you could play in D "on the draw" using my A fingering.)So, if you really want to confuse people, you can play "on the draw" in G on the D row, and in D on the G row !
I am glad you said something about that, Stephen. I am particularly fond of the sound (re: placement of bellows reversals) when playing in G on a D one-row, and it's pretty common in Qu?ec. Now that I'm finally playing on a D/G, when learning new tunes in G I am sometimes not certain that I want to learn it on the G row or D row, particularly G tunes lacking the C natural. So far, I've figured out that on some tunes that contain a lot of arpeggios, the G row is the simple choice. On more "fiddly" tunes, I'm drawn to the D row. I wish that I had some tunes learned BOTH ways, then I'd post a sound-sample to compare.
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SmoilerRedbox
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26#
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(Date Posted:22/07/2005 02:21:19)
Reply to : NorthernMelodeon
?,250 seems a bit on the steep side for a 2-voice instrument (the Tommy is 3-voice).
Well, my original Oakwood Model 2 cost something like ?50 in 1994, and the one-off red Oakwood ?,400 in 2000 - both 2-voice, and worth every penny in my opinion. I don't think ?,250 is out-of-the-way over here for a quality 2-voice - although you may be right in that you can probably get them for less than full retail. (1-voice Lilly's retail at around ?50 full price)
Diane
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SmoilerRedbox
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27#
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(Date Posted:22/07/2005 02:39:38)
Reply to : Stephen Chambers
Hi Diane,Time for a lie-detector test on those bathroom scales ?At least, accordin' to their makers the Lilly weighs in at 1.8kg, and the Touptit at 2kg.Cheers,
Hi Stephen
Time for a diet then  LOL (well, I did say 'give or take' - I'm sure ALL women read the scales that way...!).
I did think 1kg sounded a bit low - I remember thinking, isn't that a bag of sugar, and trying to 'weigh' my Lily against that concept. What I really needed was to dangle them from a spring balance, like they do with a nappy and newborns...
The manufacturers weights might vary with strap (s) - the differential would be reduced if neither had straps, or the Lily had more/ better.
Diane .
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SmoilerRedbox
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28#
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Rank:none
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Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:22/07/2005 03:25:03)
Reply to : all the talk re. learning from books...
Well, I've never read a melodeon-tutor in my life! (um...does that show? ), and until very recently - when I pretty well know my way round a 2-row intuitively, 'on automatic' - I was hopeless in workshop situation as I couldn't 'turn round' what I was shown; and I (still) don't have a clue about the names of, particularly, the bass notes, etc. (I remember Brian Peters suggesting about 4 years ago that this might help me...LOL) as these facts just don't seem to have any particular interest or relevance to me in expressing what I want to express about the music. If a bass sounds right, I play it!
I started out playing classical violin (as well as always having harmonicas from my Dad's German business trips), and still have to use either a fiddle or recorder to pick out a tune from a book, as the buttons on a melodeon just don't equate, to me, with the notes on a staff (even now, still get a bit freaked if asked for an 'A' - have to find it by experimentation...). Still can't read rhythm with ANY instrument either...Later in life, and through my profession I have come to realise I am probably dyspraxic as I have had trouble in many areas in translating things from different modes, such as visual, to the physical action required (I always was a clumsy child and...well, don't ask me to dance anything other than basic ceilidh, which is just rote stuff I can do on automatic once I've finally 'got it'!)
Anyway, to get to the point...for those who want to play English music, then I really feel the best you can do is to get out as much as possible amongst those who play it, and IMMERSE yourself in the FEEL! far more worthwhile to my mind than any book! So, listen to lots and lots of Morris and CDs, get to Ceilidhs and - re. English village dance music - amongst the likes of Flos Headford, Taz Tarrysnfd Grand Union - John Adams and Chris Coe, Pete Coe, Paul Burgess, Rod Stradling, etc., etc., (all lovely, generous people who will help spread their own enthusiasm for the music, in any way they can) and a host of other lesser known but none-the- less excellent English players who can be found at the likes of The National and English Country Music Weekend.
Must go...am off to Warwick for the day tomorrow to catch the likes of Old Swan, Mick Brooks, Glen Titmus, lots of morris music, etc...!
Diane
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gregs
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29#
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(Date Posted:22/07/2005 08:18:15)
Reply to : Stephen Chambers
Reply to : Pip Ives... I was in a session with him last year, playing in C on a D/G box, and he came over and asked me how I did it, and said that he just plays a C/F box when he wants to play in C.I guess hedoesn't play a single-row melodeon then ? Youmust have been using the same "on the draw" fingering, on the G row, that I would use to play in G on my 4-stop D ? (And you could play in D "on the draw" using my A fingering.)So, if you really want to confuse people, you can play "on the draw" in G on the D row, and in D on the G row !
Stephen, what you say makes a lot of sense to me its not confusing at all! I must say I've been down your path myself over the last couple of years, firstly gaining perverse pleasure playing in G and A on the D row of a D/G box. Then, finally, I took the major step of swapping to a C#D box to try doing the same sort of thing (just using the C# row for obvious missing notes). Well I've been having great fun with that now for about 10 months and I'd never think of going back to the D/G. I'm now playing quite happily in the keys of D,G and A, as well as some C, and all centered on that one D row.
As to the question of bouncy rhythm; like others in this thread, I was never happy with the 'flattening out' effect of excessive crossrowing on the D/G. I had usually done it to allow for a reasonable expression of the left hand chords for a particular tune. From now on, though, I've decided that my music is to be 'melody driven' rather than 'base driven' so I'm putting all my efforts into playing the actual melody with a good rhythmic feel to it and leaving most of the chordal accompaniment to others. I realise this approach would not suit everyone but, in my case, playing mostly in Irish/old timey type sessions with lots of fiddle players, it's opening up great new possibilities for me.
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Triskel
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30#
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Rank:none
Posts:329
Registered:19/12/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:22/07/2005 12:55:10)
Reply to : SmoilerRedbox
...The manufacturers weights might vary with strap (s) - the differential would be reduced if neither had straps, or the Lily had more/ better.
Diane,
You could always try taking the reedblocks out ? 
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MY
